Can the church give any one salvaton

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Joseph_Smith

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Salvation being obtainable through the RCC alone—A friend sent this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 169 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the church, she is our mother. ‘We believe in the church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation.’” They admit God authors salvation, but that it is only obtained through the RCC. Jesus said we must be born again to be saved, and here they say the church is the mother of that new birth, which is blatantly contrary to Scripture. The Bible says the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all, not the church. The church is the Bride of Christ, therefore, the Bride would then be its own mother, were this true. Ludicrous.
Salvation can be obtained by any free willed person all they have to due is call upon the Lord Jesus name and believe on him. So simple a plan is it not.
Jesus said all whom the Father give are mine. He never said all that the pope give are mine. Jesus has been saving people from day one he did not even take a break for the first325 years. And he has not changed he is still saving people the bride of christ is the body of believers. The church of Christ is ruled by Christ and is subject to Christ. The church does not rule over Christ and it can’t give salvation period. Only God can do that. And he does that via the Holy Spirit.
 
I have to ask- this is a Catholic apologetics forum. Do you think this is stuff none of us have heard before?
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What do you know about history JS?

How about some proper thinking? We enquire about God because we seek the deepest meaning of our being. We enquire about Christ because we seek a solid, personal and historical foundation for the God we find deep in our being and we enquire about the Church because we seek to institutionalise and communicate our understanding of Christ.

Christ founded a Church- a body of believers in order to communicate the faith he revealed, or deposited with us. What a wonderful gift.
 
A favorite priest of mine once spoke of such in a homily of his:

Two friends were talking in front of a fire, talking about this very topic. One argued that he did not need fellowship because he was strong enough without it; the other of course believed the Church was necessary. As they spoke an ember popped out of the fire. They both watched it slowly die and become cool. The friend then turned to his non church going buddy and said: That is you. Without fellowship and strength it is impossible to mantain a healthy relationship with the Lord. Without the support of the other coals burning, you will cool and lose faith.

So, I say, the Church is necessary (as is stated numerous times in the Bible) because without it a healthy relationship with God cannot be had. Moreover, unlike a single man who is guided by the corruption of their own wants and desires, the Church is not blinded by such and seeks what is desired by God.
 
Joseph_Smith said:
Salvation being obtainable through the RCC alone—A friend sent this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 169 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the church, she is our mother. ‘We believe in the church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation.’” They admit God authors salvation, but that it is only obtained through the RCC. Jesus said we must be born again to be saved, and here they say the church is the mother of that new birth, which is blatantly contrary to Scripture. The Bible says the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all, not the church. The church is the Bride of Christ, therefore, the Bride would then be its own mother, were this true. Ludicrous.
Salvation can be obtained by any free willed person all they have to due is call upon the Lord Jesus name and believe on him. So simple a plan is it not.
Jesus said all whom the Father give are mine. He never said all that the pope give are mine. Jesus has been saving people from day one he did not even take a break for the first325 years. And he has not changed he is still saving people the bride of christ is the body of believers. The church of Christ is ruled by Christ and is subject to Christ. The church does not rule over Christ and it can’t give salvation period. Only God can do that. And he does that via the Holy Spirit.
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Do you therefore reject the following Biblical principles:
  1. Christ is head of the body, the Church?
  2. The persecution of the Church is persecution of Christ?
  3. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?
  4. The Church will never be defeated by the powers of death?
Because if you claim that you can separate Christ and his Church, then YOU are the unbiblical one.
 
Ah, the:nope: puir wee mannikin is:eek: working himself up over things he doesna’ understand.
Joseph, ye truly need to read a wee little bit about the Catholic Church. (Something that didna’ fall from the fevered brain of Jack Chick, that is!)
Ye’re:eek: raising your own blood pressure & ye:nope: dinnae even know what Catholics actually believe & teach!!
 
Maybe i should put this into prespective, The way is narrow and few are they that find it. I am a apostle and a prophet of the Lord Jesus and unto his Father. Many are the paths of the men of this earth. But there is only one rightious path and that is the path least traved in this hour by the people of this earth.
I have been blessed with eyes that see and ears that hear. Mans time on this earth is coming to a close. God is about to take his people out of this world and then the judgement. Are you ready for the trip. In the last 7 years I have grown greatly in the Lord and I am here for a reason. As a apostle i am privileged in many ways. I am taught by God my zeal is because I know my teacher and my friend and I know what he likes and what he dislikes. He does not like sin or lies. And he does not approve of half truths.
 
Oh dear. :rolleyes:

So now you’re going to convince us by explaining that, actually, God talks to you and has told you that we are wrong?

So your half truths disprooved- your failing to win the argument by reason and our easy disputation of your facts has led you to claim superior access to the almighty?

Where is your humility brother? If you are a servant of God then be wary!

THINK! If your arguments cannot win us over by reason, if they can be easily shown to be misleading half truths- lies if you will- how can we then believe that you who brings them here to us has knowledge of the one true GOD?
 
Joseph_Smith said:
Maybe i should put this into prespective, The way is narrow and few are they that find it. I am a apostle and a prophet of the Lord Jesus and unto his Father.
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Oh, weel, then!! Why did ye nae tell us sooner???
😃
pssstttt: Dinnae fash the wee mannikin! It’s a prophet he is, now!
I have been blessed with eyes that see and ears that hear.
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A guid thing to have, then…😉 Better than the reverse, ye’d walk into the walls daily.
In the last 7 years I have grown greatly in the Lord and I am here for a reason.
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:whistle: :whistle:
As a apostle i am privileged in many ways. I am taught by God my zeal is because I know my teacher and my friend and I know what he likes and what he dislikes. He does not like sin or lies. And he does not approve of half truths.
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http://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/4.../4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/5.gif
 
Joseph_Smith said:
Salvation being obtainable through the RCC alone—A friend sent this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 169 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the church, she is our mother. ‘We believe in the church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the church as if she were the author of our salvation.’” They admit God authors salvation, but that it is only obtained through the RCC. Jesus said we must be born again to be saved, and here they say the church is the mother of that new birth, which is blatantly contrary to Scripture. The Bible says the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all, not the church. The church is the Bride of Christ, therefore, the Bride would then be its own mother, were this true. Ludicrous.
Salvation can be obtained by any free willed person all they have to due is call upon the Lord Jesus name and believe on him. So simple a plan is it not.
Jesus said all whom the Father give are mine. He never said all that the pope give are mine. Jesus has been saving people from day one he did not even take a break for the first325 years. And he has not changed he is still saving people the bride of christ is the body of believers. The church of Christ is ruled by Christ and is subject to Christ. The church does not rule over Christ and it can’t give salvation period. Only God can do that. And he does that via the Holy Spirit.
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169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
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Why didn’t you be honest and quote the whole thing?

There are a whole pile of things wrong with your argument here.

What did Christ establish on Peter before He ascended into Heaven?

It wasn’t a book or collection of them…in fact with the exception of Revelation He nowhere commissioned any one to write anything at all.

So who did He use to give us the New Testament and to affirm to us what is inspired scripture and what is not?

It wasn’t the Bible for without that early Catholic church we would not have a canon at all, much the same as the Jews do today…

Now…all that aside…just how does salvation come to us?

You can assert that it’s through the Bible, but that’s bunk because without the preaching of the Gospel by the church the Gospel would never have spread. The Holy Spirit used the apostles and believers to spread the Gospel all over the world. So the fact is that salvation does indeed come to us through the ministry of the church. 14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10)

This being the all too scriptural case, your allegations are unbiblical rhetoric and propaganda.
 
Joseph_Smith said:
He does not like sin or lies. And he does not approve of half truths.
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Then I’d quit preaching 'em to us then.

I’ve already refuted your propaganda on several threads and I dare say that my brother and sister Catholics (not to mention dear sister Zooey!) have done so as well.

You need to go have a close look at the Forum Rules and especially conduct rule 6 and the Banned Topic # 6 and then consider if you are willing to comply with the rules that you agreed to when you joined us here at CAF.

This is not a platform for your evangelism and propaganda. If I wanted to return to the Baptist church, I’d still be there, but I saw their errors early on, like OSAS and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the death of the last apostle, (I’ll bet you can’t even tell me who that was., but I know because I have studied to show myself approved unto God. 🙂 )

You are abusing your welcome here at CAF.
 
Maybe i should put this into prespective, The way is narrow and few are they that find it. I am a apostle and a prophet of the Lord Jesus and unto his Father. Many are the paths of the men of this earth. But there is only one rightious path and that is the path least traved in this hour by the people of this earth.
I have been blessed with eyes that see and ears that hear. Mans time on this earth is coming to a close. God is about to take his people out of this world and then the judgement. Are you ready for the trip. In the last 7 years I have grown greatly in the Lord and I am here for a reason. As a apostle i am privileged in many ways. I am taught by God my zeal is because I know my teacher and my friend and I know what he likes and what he dislikes. He does not like sin or lies. And he does not approve of half truths.
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My dear Joseph. It is good to hear that you understand that Jesus indeed does not like sin or lies and that he does not approve of half-truths. The Church and all Catholics (even the least educated ones I believe) will agree with you. If you ask me, that is precisely the reason why many choose to stay Catholic.

As for you claiming to be an apostle and a prophet - no thank you. I take the biblical warning about many false prophets quite seriously.

As for you, I’m still wondering if you’re being serious or if you’re simply trolling this forum. I do not mean to sound rude, but if you come to a catholic forum under the name of Joseph Smith (a self-proclaimed prophet and the founder of Mormonism) and claim to be a prophet of our Lord and that the world is coming to an end, I’m left with no choice but to wonder what this is really about.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
I do not mean to sound rude, but if you come to a catholic forum under the name of Joseph Smith (a self-proclaimed prophet and the founder of Mormonism) and claim to be a prophet of our Lord and that the world is coming to an end, I’m left with no choice but to wonder what this is really about.
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I have to admit to:ehh: wondering the same thing…It is a :hmmm:singular choice…:hmmm:
 
Joseph_Smith said:
As a apostle i am privileged in many ways. I am taught by God my zeal is because I know my teacher and my friend and I know what he likes and what he dislikes. He does not like sin or lies. And he does not approve of half truths.
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You sir are certainly no apostle. The human in me wants to say more, but the call to charity within me holds my tongue. God bless.
 
Matt 13:13
Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand

Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

Luke 13:26-28
"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
"But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Which church has more made up about it, and even mroe that refuse to lsiten to what is actualy taught?
What Church proclaiming to be christian is hated more that all?
What is to happen to those that profess their obedience to Him, but knowingly refuse his church?

Lets assume for a sec someon or soemthing is talking to you

If you truely believe you are a being instructed by god, yet have such vitriol. Consider this.

“Even the devil can come in the form of an angel of light”

IS IT POSSIBLE that the one that is instructing you is infact the devil or one of his minions? Ask your self that but do not answer here. Tell you what. Dont answer here. We all know what your answer will be. so if you do answer, we know you did not truely think about it. Ask and answer only yourself.

May Christ Remove the scales from your eyes
May the Blessed Mother pray to our Lord that you may hear what you are being told and come away from your hatred.

In Jesus’s name
 
Joseph_Smith said:
I am a apostle and a prophet of the Lord Jesus and unto his Father.
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In Acts 5:13 we see that the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and DID NOT DARE to take it upon themselves. Furthermore, we see in Acts 15:6,24 & 16:4 that this teaching authority MUST be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

So tell us, when & where did you receive Apostalic authority? One must be ordained, according to Acts 1:22, through the laying on of hands by a bishop (Acts 6:6 & Acts 15:22-27), in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
 
Here’s a free tip Joseph. Before you jump into a Catholic forum and start telling us how wrong our Chruch is in its teaching you might want to educate yourself just a bit. A quick reading of a snippet of the Catechism that a buddy sent you just won’t cut it. The latest document that I know of that lays out in clear terms the Church’s position on the role of the Church in salvation is Dominus Iesus. Read that one through a couple of times and then get back to us.
 
Legal_Eagle said:
Here’s a free tip Joseph. Before you jump into a Catholic forum and start telling us how wrong our Chruch is in its teaching you might want to educate yourself just a bit. A quick reading of a snippet of the Catechism that a buddy sent you just won’t cut it. The latest document that I know of that lays out in clear terms the Church’s position on the role of the Church in salvation is Dominus Iesus. Read that one through a couple of times and then get back to us.
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👍
 
I have always been entertained greatly by people who think they know who the prophets and apostles of God are. As you can tell I respect no men not God and his Word only. Nor do i seek my own will by his will and his truths. As you by your own words denounce the writen testiment of the Fathers of the faith who are the apostles and the prophets and perfer the tridations of fiction over the truth of God. How could even a child consider you mature, muchless of the truth.
The prophets came teaching to return to the ways of truth and to depart from the worship of the false gods, of there prespective times. Am I not a voice crying return unto the Lord. Yeat you say we will do return to the Lord. Has God not destroyed those in the wilderness for such disobidence. I point to the foundations of the apostles. You point to the bebblings of a false priesthood not taught by the apsotles of Christ.
I point out that all indeed all have sinned and ALL means sin. You say all but the sinnless Mary promoting a lie and practicing a lie. You say indeed the church agrees with us and that Mary is in heaven and assume. The problem is God word is his word and i speak and you tell you of his word and not of my word. There is not error in his word and his word has called you a lier not me. You think that i attack you when i point to God word whom are you being judged by not me. But you are being judged by your own heart. The word is convicting you from with in.
So when you attack me are you not attacking God and his word. For i do not come in my name but in his name and i do not exalt myself for i am nothing but a servent. Christ is all things. You point to all your vast imagaination and the imaginations of the you church. I point to the foundaiton with are the 12 apostles of Christ and there words on the matter you point to new revelation that have been created from imagaintion over the last 1700 years.
If i say follow me then indeed i am a lier, but i say return unto God and his Word. If i boast of myself then indeed i and deserving of death. But i have said Christ is above and indeed he is the one high priest between God and man. You point to your imaginations. Triditions are nothing by imagiantions. The foundation of God chruch is in truth not imagaination.
I would not be suprized to actually hear a Pope bishop or priest of the catholic church say anything at this point. But imagination is just that and fiction is fiction no mater how you view it.
We as a people of God are called to case down imaginations by the word of God. You error in not denouncing that false things the church is teaching that are not supported by the word of God. In the fact that you do not denounce the false hoods of the church, You are of the false one and not of God. If you were of the truth you would indeed expose the that which is false. For the light exposed the darkness.
So you point to what, old wives fabels, vanity,foolishness
false teaching of a false priesthood and all manner of things not supported in the scriptures of God. Things not fortold by the prophets and things that can in no ways be of God.
And how geart are you crys to be heard, I hear you crying follow us follow us follow us. I came point to God and say return to the Lord. Who then who is false. You say follow us and out false god. I declair the one true God. I do not follow gods made mans hands, nor gods carved by mans hands, nor gods if fiction, nor gods of imagaintion.
When shall you return unto the Lord. Oh that they should know the Christ and his God.
Could it be you are attacking the name of joseph smith the false prophet who created the mormon faith. His faith was started with the word of God and then tridition and imagation created what is now a cult. Wonder how that compares to the catholic church.
 
joseph, are you here to understand Catholicism or just tell us we are all cult followers? what is your TRUE intent?
 
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