Can The Church survive in an islamic world?

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John_Paul_Jones said:
Can The Church survive in an islamic world?

The first time I wonder if Christianity could exist within a islamic controlled region is when I heard that in islam alcohol is prohibited. How does alcohol relate to Christianity? For some Christians wine is used during their ceremonies. But from my understanding for some Christians once the wine is consecrated it is no longer ordinary wine It is the sacred Blood of Jesus. And even though a small amount is consumed by a single person participating in the ceremony by islamic standards it is still haram.

I don’t know the islamic perspective to how a follower of islam sees the actions of non-islamic people i.e. do they see other religions that use wine as committing haram… so if wine is forbidden, I am only guessing that in an islamic controlled country so would a ceremony including wine would also be forbidden. Something like that I wouldn’t know how it would be answered.

Even though it is something I don’t have an answer for, what I found out when heard about the muttawa arrest Filipinos who attend a mass (in 2010) was that religious articles can not be worn nor other sacred images are allowed to be shown in the homes of non-islamic people in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there there is also a ban on the construction of non-islamic places of worship in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there the latest thing I heard was there was a call for destruction of Churches in the region. So whether it is an docile act of worship, or a personal display of devotion or even a place of worship it seems that there is an intolerance for the freedom of non-islamic religious expression in Saudi Arabia and surrounding areas. Is this attitude toward churches only that of Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah or do you think that this something could spread throughout other ilsamic controlled regions? Can The Church survive in a islamic controlled world?

Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Churches in Region
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I suggest you relate this question to those that act to destroy His Church. Europe and Protestants embarked to do that. In time over the past 500 years they did not and in fact those countries that were in theory Protestant are becoming Catholic. Islam is a tougher nut and yet Islam suffers from the same sort of lack of structure that Protestant thought does. It appears as you say that the government, not Islam, is the source of the problem and who knows what these governments will do.
 
One would hope that people of all faiths can learn to live in peace and harmony with each other.
 
John_Paul_Jones said:
And even though a small amount is consumed by a single person participating in the ceremony by islamic standards it is still haram.
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Having lived several years in a couple of different, muslim countries (qatar, kuwait) and spent not an insignifigant amount of time in several others I can tell you that muslims talk a good game, but fail miserably in the execution.

They drink like fish. And often.
 
Calgar said:
It would be nice, but islam, buddahism, and others will not allow for that.
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Says who?

And for that matter, do you mean to say that Christians don’t help create problems with other religious communities?
 
Bezant said:
And for that matter, do you mean to say that Christians don’t help create problems with other religious communities?
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I see your point. I guess those Christians in Nigeria just had that coming (not).
 
There are Christians in every Moslem country. Even in a country where they are especially badly mistreated, like Pakistan. There are even Christians in Saudi Arabia, though they have to have hidden lives there. So Christians have and do survive in an Islamic world, in these countries. In many of these countries, they have survived for more than a thousand years.
 
mdgspencer said:
There are Christians in every Moslem country. Even in a country where they are especially badly mistreated, like Pakistan. There are even Christians in Saudi Arabia, though they have to have hidden lives there. So Christians have and do survive in an Islamic world, in these countries. In many of these countries, they have survived for more than a thousand years.
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Indeed. In fact, there were often Christians in these countries long before anyone had heard of Islam. Places like Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey all have very old established Christian communities.
 
John_Paul_Jones said:
Can The Church survive in an islamic world?
The first time I wonder if Christianity could exist within a islamic controlled region is when I heard that in islam alcohol is prohibited. How does alcohol relate to Christianity? For some Christians wine is used during their ceremonies. But from my understanding for some Christians once the wine is consecrated it is no longer ordinary wine It is the sacred Blood of Jesus. And even though a small amount is consumed by a single person participating in the ceremony by islamic standards it is still haram.
I don’t know the islamic perspective to how a follower of islam sees the actions of non-islamic people i.e. do they see other religions that use wine as committing haram… so if wine is forbidden, I am only guessing that in an islamic controlled country so would a ceremony including wine would also be forbidden. Something like that I wouldn’t know how it would be answered.
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Can the Church survive in an Islamic ‘world’? It depends on what sort of Islam is predominant. Whether we’re talking about Sufist or Salafi, Shia or Sunni, traditional or progressive, I think the answer would be “yes”–Christians have survived, even thrived, throughout all kinds of Islamic rule–however, I think a better question would be how well can Christianity survive in an Islamic world?

My answer: again, it depends.

You would likely have to think about freedom of public and private expression (including evangelism), civil rights and responsibilities, etc.

I think alcohol, in and of itself, would be the last thing to worry about – the real issue is the freedom of religious expression within your community. In Iran Jews and Christians are allowed to use wine for private purposes, and allegedly this is also (or was) the case in Saudi Arabia, at least unofficially–as long as they don’t sell them, or they don’t end up in Muslim hands. Even if alcohol is forbidden, for some Christian communities grape juice is suitable for communion.
John_Paul_Jones said:
Even though it is something I don’t have an answer for, what I found out when heard about the muttawa arrest Filipinos who attend a mass (in 2010) was that religious articles can not be worn nor other sacred images are allowed to be shown in the homes of non-islamic people in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there there is also a ban on the construction of non-islamic places of worship in Saudi Arabia. But it doesn’t stop there the latest thing I heard was there was a call for destruction of Churches in the region. So whether it is an docile act of worship, or a personal display of devotion or even a place of worship it seems that there is an intolerance for the freedom of non-islamic religious expression in Saudi Arabia and surrounding areas.

Is this attitude toward churches only that of Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah or do you think that this something could spread throughout other ilsamic controlled regions? Can The Church survive in a islamic controlled world?

Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Churches in Region
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what to make of this – but I think there’s a great deal of attention squared on the Mufti, and perhaps not enough of the bigger picture.
 
Calgar said:
Says the DKBA, Boko Haram, the muslim brotherhood, al qaeda, GIA, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Aum Shinrikyo, etc, etc, etc. That’s who. 😛
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I suppose the NLTF, MNCA, Westboro Baptist Church, Iron Guard, Lord’s Resistance Army, Ku Klux Klan, and Christian Identity communities are as representative of Christianity as Aum Shinrikyo and al-Qaeda are of Islam and Buddhism?
 
Bezant said:
I suppose the NLTF, MNCA, Westboro Baptist Church, Iron Guard, Lord’s Resistance Army, Ku Klux Klan, and Christian Identity communities are as representative of Christianity as Aum Shinrikyo and al-Qaeda are of Islam and Buddhism?
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No, they don’t even hold a candle to the sheer body count and member numbers that adherants to muslim groups have.

Just out of curiosity, what’s the westboro baptist church’s body count up to now? :rolleyes:
 
Calgar said:
No, they don’t even hold a candle to the sheer body count and member numbers that adherants to muslim groups have.
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Do you have those numbers showing the representation of Muslim (and while you mentioned it, Buddhist) terrorist groups within the global Muslim and and Buddhist community?
 
Bezant said:
Do you have those numbers showing the representation of Muslim (and while you mentioned it, Buddhist) terrorist groups within the global Muslim and and Buddhist community?
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Are you asking me how many muslims out of the billion or so are members of a terrorist organization? Are supporters included? Or are you asking for numbers of trigger pullers?

Since you’re asking me, do you have any numbers showing the representation of Christian terrorist groups within the global Christian community?
 
If the absolute worst came to pass and islam spread to the point where the majority of muslims were pushing (it’d be the fringe elements pushing for it but the majority as we know all too well will be strangely silent on the matter) for enforcing Islamic law on the world and threatening the existence of the Church then His Holiness the Pope can simply declare a Crusade and the armies of Christ will conquer the heathens once more. Say what you will. I don’t concern myself with stepping on peoples feelings. I’m not out to hurt anyone but I will not suffer any force that threatens Christ or His Church.
 
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