Can the dead communicate with the living?

[Jzyehoshua]

Can the dead communicate with the living?

Below are some verses for why I do not believe they can:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 

[Genesis315]

After the resurrection, Christ opened the gates of Heaven and destroyed death. He is the God of the living

 

[Jzyehoshua]

After the resurrection, Christ opened the gates of Heaven and destroyed death. He is the God of the living

But the dead in Christ “sleep” and will not be raised until the last day, right?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[guanophore]

Well, they WILL be alive when they are raised in the last day. That is why verse 25 says, “For when they rise from the dead”.

In Luke 16 we see Abraham separated by a great gulf fixed from those in Hell, which no man can cross, and apparently in a waiting place for those who die.

Furthermore, a verse in that chapter suggests the lack of communication or nearness between the dead and the living:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

I agree that they will not be united with their bodies until the last day,but their souls are alive in heaven. If that were not true, how could this conversation happen at all?

Can the dead communicate with the living?

All souls are alive unto God, this is what Jesus shows us when questioned about marriage after death. They He clearly states “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”.

When we pray to the saints, we are not praying to the “dead” but the living. So, I agree with you, it is not possible to communicate with the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This passage is often used to support the erroneous doctrine of “soul sleep”. It was written by someone who did not understand about life after death. This is the thinking that the Saducees had, because they did not accept the later revelation of God that people are alive in heaven after they die. Although this doctrine becomes clear in the scriptures of the intertestamental period, the Saducees did not accept it, and still did not after Jesus corrected them. What is odd is that you would prefer this passage over the teaching of Jesus?

 

[Jzyehoshua]

I agree that they will not be united with their bodies until the last day,but their souls are alive in heaven. If that were not true, how could this conversation happen at all?

All souls are alive unto God, this is what Jesus shows us when questioned about marriage after death. They He clearly states “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”.

When we pray to the saints, we are not praying to the “dead” but the living. So, I agree with you, it is not possible to communicate with the dead.

But concerning the Resurrection of the dead, it will not happen until the last day. So while the dead one day will be living, they are not currently.

Concerning those that sleep, the Bible specifically states that they are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

This passage is often used to support the erroneous doctrine of “soul sleep”. It was written by someone who did not understand about life after death. This is the thinking that the Saducees had, because they did not accept the later revelation of God that people are alive in heaven after they die. Although this doctrine becomes clear in the scriptures of the intertestamental period, the Saducees did not accept it, and still did not after Jesus corrected them. What is odd is that you would prefer this passage over the teaching of Jesus?

The dead will rise, but not until the last day. That this resurrection has not yet occurred is evident from the Scriptures, and to say otherwise is a heresy:

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

And that day will not come until after the man of perdition has been revealed who will sit in the temple calling himself God:

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Can the dead communicate with the living?

Below are some verses for why I do not believe they can:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

King Saul communicated with Samuel through a medium. It is possible and happens more than you think.

Check my two blogs for more info, though I doubt you will believe it or find it useful.

By the way, your thinking borders on Seventh Day Adventism.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Can the dead communicate with the living?

Below are some verses for why I do not believe they can:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

This is a description of the separation in hell and doesn’t correlate with saints in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Their body is clinically dead, but their spirit is elsewhere.

Peace…

MW

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Note: Luke 16:26 is used out of context. The gulf is between paradise and punishment sides of the grave. The text does not say the gulf is between the “dead” and the living as is being used out of context in this thread. The Rich man in context is asking for someone to be Resurrected to go speak to his family about repenting too.

Luke 16

19
12 “There was a rich man 13 who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day.
20
And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21
who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.
22
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23
and from the netherworld, 14 where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24
And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’
25
Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.
26
Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’
27
He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house,
28
for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’
29
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
30
15 He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[mlchance]

Can the dead communicate with the living?

Below are some verses for why I do not believe they can:…

Why is your interpretation better than Church’s? How are you a more authoritative interpreter of Scripture than the Church? How do you reconcile the few verses you’ve quoted (out of context) with others in the Bible that clearly speak of those in Heaven being aware of us still in this life?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Tim_Hayes]

“6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

Notice that in the above quote the words specifically used are FOR EVER

Now the Jehovas witness for eg, believe that there will be a new earth etc etc, well I’m afraid that the bible does not tell us that there definatively will be no more Sun or stars etc, so therefor we can assume that they will still be around (irrespective of whether we believe they are needed or not) and if they are around then even in the resurection after the last days etc it means that those who have died according to the above phrase can not be brought back to life to live again in any way shape or form what so ever.

If I remember correctly Ecclesiastes is about comparing God with no God for want of a better term, so we are talking about what becomes of those who are not Godly or believe in God, as distinct from those who do believe.

 

[guanophore]

But concerning the Resurrection of the dead, it will not happen until the last day. So while the dead one day will be living, they are not currently.

Those who are in Christ are alive forevermore. They are not yet joined with their bodies, but the shall never die.

Concerning those that sleep, the Bible specifically states that they are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

You have taken this verse totally out of context, and ended up on the opposite side of what Paul is trying to say!?

12 Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. 1 Cor 15:12-19

You are among those who are most to be pitied!

1 Cor 15:12-19 The dead will rise, but not until the last day. That this resurrection has not yet occurred is evident from the Scriptures, and to say otherwise is a heresy:

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

And that day will not come until after the man of perdition has been revealed who will sit in the temple calling himself God:

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

These two things have nothing to do with each other. The resurrection on the last day will rejoin the bodies of those who have passed on to their everlasting souls. The souls of the just are in heaven. The souls of the wicked in hell.

What are you saying? Did God wake Samuel from his “soul sleep” to talk to Saul?

Did God wake Moses and Elijah from their “soul sleep” to converse with Jesus?

And what do you think happened to the bodies of those who were raised from the graves at the crucifixion? Do you think they had to get reburied? Obviously they are no longer with us…

 

[guanophore]

Saul used forbidden means to do this. Saul was not praying to Samuel but using the occult to summon Samuel.

Thiis is true, however, God still allowed Samuel to appear to Saul, and the two had a conversation. The point is, those who have passed on are conscious of what goes on here in the earth. If God wills, they can be involved to whatever degree He allows. In this case, Samuel made a prophesy to Saul.

Again this is not prayer but an actual appearance with the Son of God.

Now you are contradicting yourself! On another thread you just argued that prayer was a form of communication. I agreed with you (although there was another poster who did not). It is not the appearance of the Son ofGod that is in question here, but whether or not the Saints are conscious (able to witness) and interact with those here on earth. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. The Apostles witnessed them having a conversation.

Even though the dead are living in another realm this does not mean they can or we can communicate with them.

No, the reason we can communicate with them is that we are all members of the same Body of Christ. It is One Body. Part of it is here on earth, the other part in heaven. We are only separated from one another through the veil of flesh.

Same as previous comment. Just because someone is alive doesn’t mean you communicate with them.

Make up you mind. First you accused Catholics of communicating with the dead, now you say, even if they are alive, that doesn’t mean you can communicate?!

 

[Scottgun]

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. The Apostles witnessed them having a conversation.

Yep.

Elijah and Moses were dead.
Jesus was living.
They communicated.
Ergo, the dead can communicate with the living.

 

[guanophore]

Yep.

Elijah and Moses were dead.
Jesus was living.
They communicated.
Ergo, the dead can communicate with the living.

I don’t agree. Those whose lives are hidden with Christ in God NEVER PERISH! They have passed on from this world, but they are alive to HIm.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should **not perish **but have eternal life. John 3:16-17

Jesus clearly states that ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. Matt 22:31-33

He said this to sadducees, who thought there was no life after death. In heaven, Jesus said, they are like angels. Angels are alive, conscious, and able to act in this world.

 

[jmcrae]

But the dead in Christ “sleep” and will not be raised until the last day, right?

Their bodies are “asleep” (dead) but their spirits are conscious, as we see from the Book of Revelation, where they are singing and praising God already, even though the Resurrection of the Dead hasn’t happened yet.

 

[LilyM]

‘He who believes in me will NEVER die’ - my emphasis, but Our Lord’s own words.

 

[Scottgun]

I don’t agree. Those whose lives are hidden with Christ in God NEVER PERISH! They have passed on from this world, but they are alive to HIm.

Yes, I left it to the reader’s sense (apparently unsuccessfully) to supply that Enoch and Elijah were once alive on this earth, talking to Jesus who was currently living on this earth at the time in order to demonstrate the error of the title of the thread. Of course there is a whole deep theology that goes beyond mere bodily existence on earth or Heaven, but my aim was more modest but not limiting.

 

[rinnie]

I personally think that sometimes if God wants us to know something he can sometimes used our loved ones in a dream somehow to give us messages. But as far as to try to communicate with the dead this is wrong. If God wanted us to communicate with them he would have told us. But yes i do believe that sometimes they can tell us things, but it has to be Gods will. Not ours. I think everyone sometime or another dream of a loved one tellling them something or warning them and some how it comes out true. But if thats the dead communicating with the living im not sure about that. But i guess yes its possible. But again only if its Gods will.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

King Saul communicated with Samuel through a medium. It is possible and happens more than you think.

Check my two blogs for more info, though I doubt you will believe it or find it useful.

By the way, your thinking borders on Seventh Day Adventism.

Peace…

MW

1 Samuel 28
Saul and the Witch of Endor
1 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, “You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army.”
2 David said, “Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do.”
Achish replied, “Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.”

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, “As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your maidservant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.”

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 (New International Version)

13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Thats true, and God comdemmed him for doing so.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yep.

Elijah and Moses were dead.
Jesus was living.
They communicated.
Ergo, the dead can communicate with the living.

And, we are NOT Jesus.

it is likely that Elijah and Moses were ressurrected for this appearance. In Jude 9, the body of Moses was recovered. In Jewish traditions, moses was assumed into heaven like Elijah.

Recorded by Josephus,

Now as soon as they were come to the mountain called Abarim, (which is a very high mountain, situate over against Jericho, and one that affords, to such as are upon it, a prospect of the greatest part of the excellent land of Canaan,) he dismissed the senate; and as he was going to embrace Eleazar and Joshua, and was still discoursing with them,** a cloud stood over him on the sudden, and he disappeared in a certain valley**, although he wrote in the holy books that he died, which was done out of fear, lest they should venture to say that, because of his extraordinary virtue, he went to God.

reluctant-messenger.com/josephusA04.htm

Both Enoch and Elijah are assumed into heaven (Heb. 11: 5; 2 Kings 2:11).

So, technically, they were not dead in the biblical sense ( James 2:26 ) but were translated, thus resurrected.

Yes, this leaves open the possiblity of assumption of others like Mary. But, the evidence for Mary’s assumption is strange to say the least.

Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption
Shoemaker, Stephen J. , oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/religion/9780199250752/toc.html