Can the Death Penalty save souls?

[CrossofChrist]

Yes, it is capable of saving souls. Hopefully we don’t have to resort to that to save them though.

 

[littlenothing]

It doesn’t matter what we think “might” be a better “general” situation that would turn someone to repentance. It is wrong to take a life that is not posing a threat to someone anymore. Conversion is in the hands of the Father, and so is death. If you think you are doing God’s will by executing someone, you should be careful to discern His will.

That being said, I don’t think legal capitol punishment is nearly the same as murder.

michael

I will take that into consideration as to those who are no longer a threat.

What about the gangs in prisons that beat up and kill other gang members of other groups and order outside killings from the inside? For someof these people, even prison doesn’t deter them.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Dear fellow members,

Can the death penalty save souls? Do you not think it possible that someone faced with death as the consequence of a freely chosen act of evil might turn his heart to repentance and beg for God’s mercy? Might it be more likely that the soul of the impenitent sinner would simply rot away if that person was merely thrown into prison for life?

(Of course, by ‘save souls’ I mean ‘by way of the Cross’.)

I don’t think it matters, because the death penalty is a serious sin against God. I would not contemplate what good might come from such a thing.

 

[aspirant]

Do you not think it possible that someone faced with death as the consequence of a freely chosen act of evil might turn his heart to repentance and beg for God’s mercy?

Sure, it’s possible. That possibility wouldn’t justify using the death penalty in any circumstances in which there are non-lethal means of defending human lives against an aggressor. And, of course, the longer a person lives the more opportunity there is for repentance (cf. “The Lord is… patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance”). But it is possible.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thread reminded me of Pope Francis also. We are in the middle of a love story.

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-church-is-in-a-love-story

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Sure, it’s possible. That possibility wouldn’t justify using the death penalty in any circumstances in which there are non-lethal means of defending human lives against an aggressor. And, of course, the longer a person lives the more opportunity there is for repentance (cf. “The Lord is… patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance”). But it is possible.

Well said.

 

[Indifferently]

I don’t think it matters, because the death penalty is a serious sin against God.

Evidence? The death penalty is in use throughout the Old Testament and has been used in Christian countries consistently until radical leftists began to dismantle justice in the 1960s.

If anything, NOT having the death penalty is a dereliction of our Christian duty not to lead others into temptation to break God’s commandments.

 

[MaryT777]

Dear fellow members,

Can the death penalty save souls? Do you not think it possible that someone faced with death as the consequence of a freely chosen act of evil might turn his heart to repentance and beg for God’s mercy? Might it be more likely that the soul of the impenitent sinner would simply rot away if that person was merely thrown into prison for life?

(Of course, by ‘save souls’ I mean ‘by way of the Cross’.)

I thing God can use ANYTHING to help saves souls by the way of the Cross, even facing the death penatly and even being in prison. There are many such accounts by those in prison ministry

 

[MaryT777]

Years ago I read an essay by C. S. Lewis supporting your view. He noted that one is much more likely to repent in the holding cell the night before execution than in the prison geriatric ward years later when half way to dementia.

I love CS Lewis and I have never read that. Do you recall the name of the essay? I’d love to read it.

 

[pablope]

Dear fellow members,

Can the death penalty save souls? Do you not think it possible that someone faced with death as the consequence of a freely chosen act of evil might turn his heart to repentance and beg for God’s mercy? Might it be more likely that the soul of the impenitent sinner would simply rot away if that person was merely thrown into prison for life?

(Of course, by ‘save souls’ I mean ‘by way of the Cross’.)

Not according to this story…he accepted his fate…mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/miraculous-story-of-claude-newman-his.html?showComment=1324665833371

Claude’s execution
During his two weeks reprieve, Claude generously offered his sacrifice and prayers for his fellow prisoner, the reprobate James Hughs . Two weeks later, Claude was finally put to death by the electric chair on Feb.4, 1944.

Concerning Claude’s holy death Father O’Leary testified: “I’ve never seen anyone go to his death as joyfully and happily. Even the official witnesses and the newspaper reporters were amazed. They said they couldn’t understand how anyone could go and sit in the electric chair while at the same time actually beaming with happiness.”

Claude’s death notice was printed in the Vicksburg Evening News on the day of his execution Feb. 4, 1944 (see photo left). His last words to Father O’Leary were, “Father, I will remember you. And whenever you have a request, ask me, and I will ask Her.”

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I love CS Lewis and I have never read that. Do you recall the name of the essay? I’d love to read it.

Found it! The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment. It is included in the collection God in the dock.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The death penalty is in use throughout the Old Testament and has been used in Christian countries consistently until radical leftists began to dismantle justice in the 1960s.

You are right - the death penalty can be found throughout the Old Testament, as can rape, murder, incest and slavery. The Old Testament has long been used to institutionalize and normalize such things as bigotry, cruelty and ignorance. As for the dismantling of justice, I think that all depends on what one’s idea of justice is.

If anything, NOT having the death penalty is a dereliction of our Christian duty not to lead others into temptation to break God’s commandments.

It could be argued that the death penalty in itself breaks one of God’s primary commandments. Further, it could also be argued that following a commandment simply for the sake of avoiding a particular punishment is a rather hollow and meaningless reason to follow a commandment.

In regards to radicals, I can recall a very good case where a young long-haired radical was executed for crimes of insurgence against the state and against the religious establishment. Chances are you worship this young convict every Sunday, but weren’t the hands that drove those nails simply administering justice in due process as applied to capital punishment? And is any life, whether guilty or innocent, as precious to it’s maker as Him?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

You are right - the death penalty can be found throughout the Old Testament, as can rape, murder, incest and slavery…?

However, they don’t seem to carry the same degree of approval.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

However, they don’t seem to carry the same degree of approval.

Of course they do. Slavery is okay by Mosaic law, drunken incest was the sport of the biblical hero Lot, and rape is what you did to your enemies. All of these things, including capital punishment are best put behind us if we intend to move forward and evolve.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Of course they do. Slavery is okay by Mosaic law, drunken incest was the sport of the biblical hero Lot, and rape is what you did to your enemies. All of these things, including capital punishment are best put behind us if we intend to move forward and evolve.

23* If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life…,

Exodus 21:23

16* If a malicious witness rises against any man to accuse him of wrongdoing, 17 then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days; 18 the judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, 19* then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. 20 And the rest shall hear, and fear, and shall never again commit any such evil among you. 21* Your eye shall not pity; it shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Deuteronomy 17:16-21

Where did God command slavery, incest, drunkenness, rape etc?

 

[GaryTaylor]

John 13 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

Ever moving forward toward the Cross and its mystery. Divine Mercy is another way this is exemplified since V-II. We’re in the middle of that love story. It may well be two steps forward and one back, but for sure we’re in the love story, better explains the OT forward and Christian transgressions along the way. I notice along the way these laws we embrace and impose, they are very difficult to rid ourselves of once we allow them to become someone’s norm. Thats not in the love story though. Matthew 25:45 also comes to mind.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Exodus 21:23

Deuteronomy 17:16-21

Where did God command slavery, incest, drunkenness, rape etc?

Exodus 21:7

“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,** he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."

Exodus 21: 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Exodus 21: 22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

People used these passages in the old south to take the freedom and liberties of other human beings, and commit unimaginable cruelties such as beatings, breaking up families, rape and a host of other atrocities, in much the same way that some in these days would use Old Testament passages to take the lives of other human beings, even though the taking of life is also prohibited in the ten primary commandments.**

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

John 13 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

Ever moving forward toward the Cross and its mystery. Divine Mercy is another way this is exemplified since V-II. We’re in the middle of that love story. It may well be two steps forward and one back, but for sure we’re in the love story, better explains the OT forward and Christian transgressions along the way. I notice along the way these laws we embrace and impose, they are very difficult to rid ourselves of once we allow them to become someone’s norm. Thats not in the love story though. Matthew 25:45 also comes to mind.

Good post Gary Taylor.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Exodus 21:7

“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,** he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."** Note that God says If a man, He does not command him to do so.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Note that God says If a man, He does not command him to do so.

That is a very poor attempt at obfuscation, because the act of making laws in regard to dealing with slaves implies that the act of owning slaves is permissible, and in fact is business as usual. Slavery is wrong. Period. But it’s permissible in Mosaic Law.

As for the instances you have cited wherein the death penalty is prescribed, do you find that to be somewhat at odds with the commandment not to kill? My sense is that one can torture logic to make any point one likes, but killing a captive person who has no ability to stop you (as is the case with prisoners) is intuitively wrong, regardless of what a person has done, and regardless of one’s religion or lack thereof.