Can the devil cause physical effects?

[Shoshana]

**The person does not have to be involved with the occult, its absurd to suggest this. **

It is not absurb to suggest this at all. Because of the rampant use of the occcult…reiki, any new age junk, tarot cards, ouija boards, etc etc opens one up to demonic possession. But to a certain extent, there is a certain truth that you don’t have to be involved in occult. Any person who is broken in any way (I am talking psychologically) can very well be open to this sort of thing. You only need to ask Fr Amorth about the truth of this. I was involved with a woman who was ‘possessed’ because of a goup that she entered and it had to do with mind-control. It took over 5 years to free her from the devil’s grip.

**Holy people or religious people excluding Saints, deal with possesion .( minus there free will.) **

If I am following your train of thought in this thread, holy people or even religious people who lead holy lives CANNOT be possessed. It is an oxymoron. If they stray from their path of righteousness for any reason, it is always a possibility…but they cannot be holy at the same time.

Its not by free will a person allows satan to attack them

Outwardly or inwardly? I have already dealt with this subject in above posts. If it is outwardly, well, then it is allowed by God due to the person’s great holiness. But if it is inwardly (beyond the temptation, obssession), it is possession and the person has inadvertedly (on the whole) allowed this by his free will.

**or posses them. **

By the person’s thoughts and actions, indavertedly, he/she has allowed by his/her free will Satan inhabitance within himself/herself.

**God does not cause such an occurance yet permits it. **

**Again you have contradicted yourself. Do you truly understand what you are talking about? **

Ask a Catholic priest , if a non-saint should becomes possesed, if it is by their own free-will this happens???

**A lot of Catholic priests do not believe in possession. Yes, it is by their own free will that they become so (possessed) on the whole. **
But then of course not too many priests take ouija, tarot cards, voodoo or even New Age seriously.

**. as free will is a choice, no one chooses such an evil act to fall upon them. **

You are wrong. Many people choose evil all the time. Sex, drugs, murder, power, etc or any of the ‘normal’ evil things are evil acts and are chosen all the time. People sometimes pay a big price for their evil acts…AIDS, STD, abortion (which is another evil act), etc etc.

**The Saints ask God for any sufferings he wishes to bring upon them. **

Yes, the Saints will endure suffering to follow Jesus…BUT…the devil works from the outside of the Saint and not from the inside of the Saint. They cannot be possessed as holiness cannot co-exist with evil in the same person. Jesus also was attacked from the outside of Him but never from the inside. Capiche?

So yes , it is by free will the Saints alllow anything to happen, as suffering is a grace from God.

Nope, not in possession!

Jan

Here is an excerpt of Father Amorth, who is chief exorcist in Rome…it might clarify your confusion…
This second category can take six different forms:

1. External physical pain caused by Satan. We know of this from many lives of the saints. We know that Saint Paul of the Cross, the Curé of Ars, Padre Pio, and many others were beaten, flogged, and pummeled by demons. This external form of persecution does riot affect the soul; therefore with this type there has never been the need for an exorcism, only for prayers. Here I will dwell only on the other types of actions that directly affect exorcists.
2. Demonic possession. This occurs when Satan takes full possession of the body (not the soul); he speaks and acts without the knowledge or consent of the victim, who therefore is morally blameless. It is the gravest and most spectacular form of demonic afflictions, and it attracts the attention of producers of movies such as The Exorcist. ignatiusinsight.com/features/framorth_excerpt2_aug04.asp

 

[sara888]

i read it yesterdayand today…how can one become a spiritual son of Padre Pio?

**Padre Pio? go read about him and devote yourself to him.

Read what he says about his spiritual children.

Jan**

 

[sara888]

Here is an excerpt of Father Amorth, who is chief exorcist in Rome…it might clarify your confusion…
This second category can take six different forms:

1. External physical pain caused by Satan. We know of this from many lives of the saints. We know that Saint Paul of the Cross, the Curé of Ars, Padre Pio, and many others were beaten, flogged, and pummeled by demons. This external form of persecution does riot affect the soul; therefore with this type there has never been the need for an exorcism, only for prayers. Here I will dwell only on the other types of actions that directly affect exorcists.
2. Demonic possession. This occurs when Satan takes full possession of the body (not the soul); he speaks and acts without the knowledge or consent of the victim, who therefore is morally blameless. It is the gravest and most spectacular form of demonic afflictions, and it attracts the attention of producers of movies such as The Exorcist. ignatiusinsight.com/features/framorth_excerpt2_aug04.asp

I agree with most of your commentaries with regard to the Saints etc., however, I dont believe a person who becomes possesed with satan exercises their free will , they have no such free will at the point satan enters their body… Jan

 

[Steven1620]

“seek first the kingdom of God”…why worry about some prints in the snow? If you have ‘things’ right with God, what do you have to worry about? ‘do not be afraid’

 

[Shoshana]

I agree with most of your commentaries with regard to the Saints etc., however, I dont believe a person who becomes possesed with satan exercises their free will , they have no such free will at the point satan enters their body… Jan

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Satan cannot usurp the free will of anybody…just as well as God for that matter. That is why we have free will…

But we cannot take advantage of the gift of free will when we play with fire…we will get burnt in the end.

Free will that is interpreted as doing what one wants to do causes one to become slave to whatever we are playing with…

 

[inJESUS]

living in the middle east, there is this bad thing of going to religious leaders, mainly Sheikh, to ask them for help : it could be a woman who wants a certain man so she asks the Sheikh to do something to help her and the Sheikh asks her to put something in the man’s drink and absurdities like these…it is said that once the woman does this, the bad spirits take hold of her and the targeted man…ever heard of these things? widespread in middle east…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Can the devil, demons, whatever else exists on “the dark side” of the Catholic cosmology cause physical effects, or is this just a Horror movie phenomenon?

Examples include: Causing blood to run from walls, strange noises, doors slamming by themselves, mirrors cracking, sulphurous odors, etc. Is there any officially recognized instance of this or of a potential for this kind of thing to happen, anywhere in the Church?

Also, can the devil possess a dog and have it bite someone?

The devil cannot cause blood to run from walls, because this is is incompatible with the nature of the materials of which walls are made - plaster, clay, stone, brick, cement, etc., are not made of the same elements as blood, and they cannot produce effects which are not proper to their natures except by a miracle. And God alone is the true Author of all miracles. An adequate answer would go into the question of the miraculous - but that is a big issue in itself.​

It takes infinite power to convert the substance of (say) clay or brick into that of blood - & the devil does not have infinite power; so it cannot transubstantiate anything; nor
can it do anything that God does not allow it to do - it is a mad dog on a long leash which none of us need be afraid of: cautious, yes; aware that we are too readily inclined to expose ourselves to quite needless danger, certainly; aware of our own feebleness & powerlessness to defend ourselves by our own strength, most definitely - but not afraid. The devil has been defeated decisively on the Cross, and in the time since has been able to go through nothing but its final spasms - it’s finished, & one day it will be unable to do any more harm We need and should fear God alone, for God alone is great. Angels, holy or fallen, like men, are not to be feared, for they can do us no harm (or good for that matter) that God does not permit or overrule.

The devil is not supernatural, despite what is often said in films or otherwise - it is preternatural. God is alone truly supernatural, because He is greater than all created nature. The devil is as much a creature as we are - & in no way a “shadow-god”, as it were: God is God, and only God is God. The preternatural order is as much part of the created order, as the the natural order: both preternature & nature are within creation. Unlike God, Who wholly transcends all creation, & Who is Alone its Author & Preserver.

It’s important to insist that Jesus Christ has ransomed us from death, from sin, & from the power of the devil. St. Paul insisted on this, in an age as full of superstitions as our own, because there were the same fears of superhuman powers - St.Paul preached that Jesus had “triumphed over them”, “leading them captive” - and He is still triumphant over them; only He is. New Age stuff, nature worship, Wicca, satanism, are all tied to the created world - they cannot give freedom from that which they are bound to, or worship. So they are dead ends. Only a supernatural Saviour can give freedom from His creatures; & Jesus Christ is that very Saviour.

Can the devil produce physical effects ? Yes - but only indirectly. it is a spirit - visible objects are material, (including the human body) so very different in kind from those creatures which are spirits; but both spiritual and material beings are created even so - spiritual =/= supernatural.

Horror flicks are not a reliable source for Catholic demonology . Not even “Stigmata” ##