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TK421
Guest
There is nobody on Earth that isn’t susceptible to one bias or another. I’ll take the point, but it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong.
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There is nobody on Earth that isn’t susceptible to one bias or another. I’ll take the point, but it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong.meltzerboy
New member
Dissonance theory is not a matter of right or wrong; it is a way to explain how humans think after making weighty decisions. I have applied it to the way many (not all) religious converts think about their former religion. We seem to need a cognitive justification for making decisions that are important to our lives and in which we have already invested a great deal. One way of doing that is to diminish the alternative decision, which in this case would be the decision not to convert at all or to convert to a different religion than the one to which we converted. We also tend to elevate the decision we made, as well as diminish the one we did not make.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Yes it is correct.
CCC841 “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and** together with us they adore the one, merciful God**, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Our Church teaches that Muslims adore the same God as we do. We are bound by that teaching. To hold a view contrary to this is to hold a heretical view. Islam is not a demonic faith.
One of which is that Muslims adore the same God as we do, and in God’s plan for salvation have first place amongst those who acknowledge the Creator.
Personally I’ll put greater store by what the Catechism says. We are bound by the Catechism, not by a book published by CAF or anyone else. Does this book have an Imprimatur? If not then it is merely personal opinion.
Then as converts, they’d better read their Catechism, CCC841 in particular.
CCC841 “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and** together with us they adore the one, merciful God**, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Muslims adore the same God as we do. That is pure, undeniable fact. That is what our Church teaches, and we are bound to submit to that teaching.
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TK421
Guest
Hi Brendan,
That does not follow. I see one unrelated point being used to dispel another point. What, specifically, in that quote do you believe makes my view not permitted?
That does not follow. I see one unrelated point being used to dispel another point. What, specifically, in that quote do you believe makes my view not permitted?
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Luker
Guest
I would let it go…some people like the idea of splitting hairs. lol
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TK421
Guest
Well, he just inadvertently called countless saints, Doctors of the Church, and millions of contemporary Catholics “heretical”. That ought to give a person pause. This is what happens when ecumenicism is not guided by prudence. This has gone off-topic from the original post so I’ll just restate my recommendation to read Not Peace but a Sword to get a more developed understanding of Church relations with Islam.
Signing out now. God bless.
Signing out now. God bless.
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Brendan_64
Guest
If a faith is a demonic faith then clearly it cannot be a faith that worship the one true God. If a faith has been created by Satan then it surely cannot be a faith that worships God and whose members are given a special place (as first amongst those who recognise the Creator) in God’s plan for salvation.
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Brendan_64
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The Catechism does not split hairs. Maintaining that Islam is a demonic faith started by Satan is simply not compatible with the teachings of our Church. Opinions that are at odds with the teachings of our Church are heresy.
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Thorns
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Is the Church just being politically correct or trying to keep the peace when stating that Muslims worship the same God as Christians? Because in many parts of the world Muslims have been killing Christians and still continue to do so. That does not sound like the same God that has written his laws on the hearts of all men, unless we’re speaking about the OT God that commands death upon neighboring tribes.
How can these ideas be reconciled with one another?
How can these ideas be reconciled with one another?
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seeker_of_God
Guest
No one here has said that Muslims don’t worship the same God. But you can worship God and still be completely and utterly wrong in your beliefs. Satan can encourage one to believe in God but introduce dangerous lies that indeed make it demonically/Satanically influenced.
That quote also does not say that Muslims will be saved, but that there is an opportunity for them to be saved. Of course the best way for all to be saved is to join the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
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Brendan_64
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No! The Catechism was not written to appease people, the Catechism is written to highlight the truths. What is written in the Catechism is the absolute truth, every word of it, and we are bound by it.
For a Catholic to dissent from anything that is written in the catechism is to be guilty of heresy.
Men do many evil things on this earth, in the name of all sorts of things. The fact that someone commits an evil act in the name of their religion does not mean that their religion must therefore be evil or that the followers of that religion do not worship the one true God. Christian communities too have been slaughtering Muslims, in places like the Central African Republic (where Christian militias are attempting to eliminate all Muslims, men women and children) does that mean that the God that Christians worship is not the one true God?
Again, the Catechism is absolutely clear. Muslims do adore the same God as we do. That is an non-negotiable fact. To doubt that is to doubt the teachings of our Church. To hold a view contrary to that is to hold a heretical view.
There is not a separate God in the Old Testament and the New Testament! There is only one God, the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament.
They can’t be reconciled. The teaching in the Catechism is correct, Muslims do adore the one true God, as we do, as the Jews do, as Protestants do, as the followers of the Orthodox Church do. That is the teaching of our Church and we are bound by it, absolutely.
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Brendan_64
Guest
The Catechism does not claim that any of us will be saved. The opportunity is there for all of us, but none of us have a guarantee.
God does however give the Muslims (as believers in the Creator God) a special place in his plan for salvation and that is clearly stated.
Of course the fullness of truth lies within the Catholic Church, and that is the best place to be, but the idea that Muslims are simply ‘beyond the pale’ and followers of an evil religion is not in line with what our Church teaches. The CCC 841 would not specifically state what it does regarding Muslims, if the Church believed that Muslims follow an evil religion that does not worship the one true God.
I think that people’s anti-Muslim views on this are a case of people mixing up secular political views with what their Church teaches. A case of, I don’t like what some Muslims are doing, therefore their religion must be evil, therefore the Church must teach that Islam is an evil faith. That is looking at things upside down. The first port of call should always be, “What does the Church teach on this?”, because what is written in the Catechism is absolutely true and binding. We should not be wondering how the Catechism can conflict with what we believe, we should accept the Catechism as being what we believe.
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seeker_of_God
Guest
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the Catechism does not keep us from believing, rightly so I believe, that Islam is demonically influenced. I also recommend the book that was recommended earlier in the thread. I started reading it and it is enlightening. It’s not a case of what some Muslims are doing. It’s a case of what their supposed holy book tells them is absolutely proper to do, which in reality is morally reprehensible.
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Brendan_64
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How then can Muslims worship the same God as we do if their Holy Book instructs them otherwise? Belief in what the Catechism teaches us is not optional or advisory. We are compelled to believe in every single word that is written in the Catechism, and if we hold views that are contrary to what is written in the Catechism then we are bound to reject the views that we hold and align our views to the Catechism.
As to the Qu’ran being a book that instructs its followers to commit abominable acts of evil. would Blessed John Paul II really kiss such a book if it was evil?
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Thorns
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The difference of course between Christian militia groups and Muslims though is that our Bible and Catechism does not instruct us to kill non Christians so the militia group is a rogue group doing their own thing that has nothing to do with our beliefs. Whereas in the Koran, it is explicitly written and commands death for those who do not conform to Islam, and this is not just a rogue group thing, its is a core belief of Islam.
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Brendan_64
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Why then would John Paul II kiss such an evil book?
Would Pope Benedict XVI pray with Muslim Imams in a mosque if Islam was a demonic religion?
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Thorns
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My guess would be they are trying to evangelize and to “keep the peace” by these gestures.
Just like Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners. He didnt eat with them to encourage their sinful lives or to give approval, but to show them that they are loved by God too.
meltzerboy
New member
I agree with you on all counts according to the Jewish perspective that we (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) all worship the same G-d. Islam is NOT a demonic religion although individual members, as in all religions, may commit demonic acts.
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seeker_of_God
Guest
So you are denying that it is possible that the Muslims’ “holy” texsts contain anything like the following?
Just because the Catechism says what you’ve been quoting, means that these verses must not exist? Or perhaps it is not evil or demonic that Muslims are allowed to kill anyone who converts away from Islam, or to subdue Christians in their countries so that they are second-class citizens.
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ Brendan 64,
Further additional readings might show as well OUR “FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH”:
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 05/22/1984
Quote: “MASONS ARE SONS OF GOD THE FATHER.”
Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by John Paul II,
Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. 1994
Quote: “BUDDHISM IS A RELIGION OF SALVATION.”
Ratzinger. Declaration Dominus Iesus on the Unicity and Salvific Unuversality of Jesus Christ and the Church, 6 August 2000
Quote: “MANY FALSE RELIGIONS FALL WITHIN THE PLAN OF SALVATION … NON-CHRISTIANS CAN BE SAVED AS SUCH.”
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 07/06/1980.
Quote: “ALL MEN ARE SAVED.”
Ratzinger. Principles of Catholic Theology Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987
Quote: “THE GOD KHRISHNA IS A SYMBOL OF CHRIST AND REALITY.”
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 11/01/1993
Quote: “ALL DECEASED MEN ARE STANDING BEFOR GOD AS SAINTS.”
With love in Christ,
LH
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