Can the Elect fall?

[MarcoPolo]

Curious for any perspective on the peculiar wording of this passage, especially Calvinistic or Catholic.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Can the “elect” fall away and be damned? If not, why does Matthew say “if possible” if he knows it is impossible?

To me it seems to suggest that some of the “elect” could be lead away, but that some have perhaps steeled themselves well enough to resist.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Curious for any perspective on the peculiar wording of this passage, especially Calvinistic or Catholic.Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.Can the “elect” fall away and be damned? If not, why does Matthew say “if possible” if he knows it is impossible?

To me it seems to suggest that some of the “elect” could be lead away, but that some have perhaps steeled themselves well enough to resist.

Can the elect fall (as in mortal sin)?
Yes…HOWEVER they will Persevere (ie repent before death).

Who specifically will persevere?
Nobody knows, not even regarding them self.

Regarding your verse above, check out verse 22:22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
This shows that the elect are spared by the fact the tribulation will be cut short (how short we dont know). Thus the “if possible” in your question means it wont happen because the event will be cut short, if it wasnt then “theoretically” the “elect” wouldnt make it.

Here is a more relevant passage from Matt 24 dealing with the tribulation:12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This verse is problematic, in fact contradictory, to Calvinist teaching. The “love growing cold” doesnt fit their system because they teach salvation cannot be lost and that nobody can love unless they are saved. However it is clear that some of these Christians will fail to persevere.

That verse as you probably guessed is in perfect harmony with Catholic teaching.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Somewhere I have seen, maybe from St Threresa of Avila, that the greater the saint the greater the potential to be a great sinner. Others have stated it as the higher you climb the further you can fall.

 

[nifferboyd]

No, the elect cannot “fall” or “backslide.” Once saved by grace, that salvation cannot be lost in any way. We are held in salvation by God’s power, not our own. Because we cannot author our own salvation we cannot lose it either, grace can only be removed by God. However, God’s faithfulness is eternal so he will not remove that grace, once granted to the elect. The elect are the elect, and have been elected by God for salvation. John 10:28 says, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Once salvation is granted, it will not be taken away.

 

[Ahimsa]

Can the “elect” fall away and be damned?

Yes, just look at the New York Yankees.

 

[alexaustralia]

I am amused by OSAS type arguments

Scenario: John Smith committed terrible sins and joined a demonic cult sacrificing children. He had been a faithful Christian for 40 years professing OSAS before his appalling fall.

Q: Doesn’t this prove that the elect can fall?

A: The reason why he fell was because he wasn’t one of the elect to begin with

Q: But all through his 40yrs he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour and honestly believed he was saved.

A: Well he was clearly mistaken … even though he claimed he accepted Jesus he clearly didn’t. This can be proven by the fact that he left his Christian heritage.

Q: So was he being foolish in thinking his salvation was assured for the 40 years he was a Christian?

A: Well … Yes

Q: What should John Smith have done other than merely believe he had accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour… as this clearly did not work …

A: nifferboyd I leave this one up to you …

 

[Hellisreal]

I think anyone can fall.

If you say no, then you have set God up to be a horror. Creating adam and eve would have been an act of hate, not love.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

God seems to think so

Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Exechiel 3:20

 

[MarcoPolo]

No, the elect cannot “fall” or “backslide.” Once saved by grace, that salvation cannot be lost in any way. We are held in salvation by God’s power, not our own. Because we cannot author our own salvation we cannot lose it either, grace can only be removed by God. However, God’s faithfulness is eternal so he will not remove that grace, once granted to the elect. The elect are the elect, and have been elected by God for salvation. John 10:28 says, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Once salvation is granted, it will not be taken away.

Thanks and welcome! I await your analysis of Matthew 24:24 in the first post!..that is the verse I want to hear about.

 

[Hellisreal]

I want to hear about how God’s first creation of human life was not “elect”?

Firstborn.

Think! Wake up!

 

[paarsurrey]

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
​

Hi

As the Muslims believe, I think, that already happened when the Christians deviated from the teachings of Jesus at hands of Paul. Quran mentions the true teachings of Jesus from which the Christians got deviated.

Thanks​

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

As the Muslims believe, I think, that already happened when the Christians deviated from the teachings of Jesus at hands of Paul. Quran mentions the true teachings of Jesus from which the Christians got deviated.

Thanks

Not true, Bible is right, quran is false

 

[adrift]

Hi

As the Muslims believe, I think, that already happened when the Christians deviated from the teachings of Jesus at hands of Paul. Quran mentions the true teachings of Jesus from which the Christians got deviated.

Thanks

Jesus warned us about false prophets and Antichrist that would come. He promised us that His Church would be protected against false teachings. Jesus cannot lie.

 

[MarcoPolo]

when the Christians deviated from the teachings of Jesus at hands of Paul

Which teachings of Paul contradict Christ?

 

[Hellisreal]

Which teachings of Paul contradict Christ?

Oh boy, here we go again with Paul was a liar stuff.

I wish muslims would stop that.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Oh boy, here we go again with Paul was a liar stuff.

I wish muslims would stop that.

Sorry I wasn’t up on the other threads…it’s just for my curiosity.

 

[Contarini]

Curious for any perspective on the peculiar wording of this passage, especially Calvinistic or Catholic.
Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.Can the “elect” fall away and be damned? If not, why does Matthew say “if possible” if he knows it is impossible?

To me it seems to suggest that some of the “elect” could be lead away, but that some have perhaps steeled themselves well enough to resist.

Odd. To me it pretty clearly indicates the opposite–that the only reason the elect will not be deceived by the false Christs is that it is impossible for them to do so. The point of “if possible” is that the perseverance of the elect derives from the electing grace of God and not from their natural ability to see through the wiles of the false Christs.

I think your interpretation is counter-intuitive and also goes against traditional Catholic readings of this. But I’ll let others judge the latter point.

Edwin

 

[MarcoPolo]

The point of “if possible” is that the perseverance of the elect derives from the electing grace of God and not from their natural ability to see through the wiles of the false Christs.

Yeah, see I thought of that aspect already (even though the text says no such thing) but that makes the passage very, very awkward to me. It should have read something more like “they will try to lead away even the elect [period]” or “they will try to lead away even the elect, although futilely.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

The elect can fall. Whether or not Protestant who held OSAS belief, the Bible makes it clear the faithful can fall. Why else did Paul tell us that we must persevere to the end. Why else did Paul talk about the immoralities practiced done by Christians when he wrote his epistles? I find Protestant theology on salvation completly flawed and contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ himself.

 

[sandusky]

MarcoPolo:

Curious for any perspective on the peculiar wording of this passage, especially Calvinistic or Catholic.

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Can the “elect” fall away and be damned? If not, why does Matthew say “if possible” if he knows it is impossible?

The persuasiveness of the false Christs and false prophets is being stressed; their persuasiveness will be so strong that even the elect would believe their lies, if that were possible—it ain’t.

alexaustralia:

I am amused by OSAS type arguments

I’m amused by the Catholic/Arminian argument that one can lose salvation—they believe that the creature has more freedom and power than the creator.

alexaustralia:

Scenario: John Smith committed terrible sins and joined a demonic cult sacrificing children. He had been a faithful Christian for 40 years professing OSAS before his appalling fall.

Q: Doesn’t this prove that the elect can fall?

A: The reason why he fell was because he wasn’t one of the elect to begin with

**Luke 8:18

“So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have shall be taken away from him.**Many seem to be believers, and many of those may seem so for a long, long time—but they ain’t (cf Lk 8:11-15).