Can the Episcopal Church be saved?

[DeusExMachina]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. Do you think it is possible to “save” the Episcopal Church, and why or why not? While I think it can be done, the facts a few unique problems: the unorthodoxy which is thought to be widespread in the Church is coming mostly from the hierarchy, rather than from in the pews; further more, it isn’t like these clergy are on the fringe either, if anything they’re a majority. This is further complicated by the fact that their isn’t very much of a doctrinal standard they can be held to, atleast not any more. So, with all that in mind, can it even be done?

 

[Anglicanus_Rex]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. Do you think it is possible to “save” the Episcopal Church, and why or why not? While I think it can be done, the facts a few unique problems: the unorthodoxy which is thought to be widespread in the Church is coming mostly from the hierarchy, rather than from in the pews; further more, it isn’t like these clergy are on the fringe either, if anything they’re a majority. This is further complicated by the fact that their isn’t very much of a doctrinal standard they can be held to, atleast not any more. So, with all that in mind, can it even be done?

No, I don’t think so. I could be, and hope that I am, wrong in that estimation. God’s grace being what it is. I do know many orthodox Christians in TEC and they are staying to fight the good fight.

 

[DeusExMachina]

No, I don’t think so. I could be, and hope that I am, wrong in that estimation. God’s grace being what it is. I do know many orthodox Christians in TEC and they are staying to fight the good fight.

You know what? I think if the church feels pressure from Africa or Canterbury, for example, then they might back down on a lot of their liberal and/or unorthodox positions.

 

[Anglicanus_Rex]

You know what? I think if the church feels pressure from Africa or Canterbury, for example, then they might back down on a lot of their liberal and/or unorthodox positions.

Canterbury is a mixed bag. England today is going through much of what the US was going through ten years ago. As for Africa, it is the future of mainstream orthodox Anglicanism (South America as well).

There isn’t much more pressure that Africa can put on TEC, considering much of the region is already out of communion with them.

 

[Padres1969]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. Do you think it is possible to “save” the Episcopal Church, and why or why not? While I think it can be done, the facts a few unique problems: the unorthodoxy which is thought to be widespread in the Church is coming mostly from the hierarchy, rather than from in the pews; further more, it isn’t like these clergy are on the fringe either, if anything they’re a majority. This is further complicated by the fact that their isn’t very much of a doctrinal standard they can be held to, atleast not any more. So, with all that in mind, can it even be done?

The Episcopal Church needs to be saved?

Most Episcopalians I know are not of the opinion that we’re in need of any additional saving, beyond Christ’s saving grace. And I’ve yet to meet an Episcopalian who is feels we’ve strayed from the path so to speak. Most who felt that way have seemingly left the fold and moved on to one of the continuing movements, the ACNA or the Ordinariate.

 

[DeusExMachina]

The Episcopal Church needs to be saved?

We’ve not only lost half our members in the last 50 years, if this ultra-liberal streak keeps going we’re going to lose a good number of historic church buildings too. So yeah, I’d say it needs to be saved.

 

[Padres1969]

We’ve not only lost half our members in the last 50 years, if this ultra-liberal streak keeps going we’re going to lose a good number of historic church buildings too. So yeah, I’d say it needs to be saved.

Losing members is nothing unique to the ECUSA or even mainline protestant churches. Almost all of Christianity including the RCC has lost membership in the west including many of the Evangelical Churches with traditionally conservative stances like the Southern Baptist Convention. It’s just the fact of life in the 21st century that unless you’re an a-religious group or non-denominational Christian, you’re going to lose members (and many of those non-denominational churches are not “conservative” theologically). It’s got little to do with liberal or conservative theology. The ECUSA could ban women priests, homosexuals, and go back to 1950 in terms of theology and it wouldn’t do a thing to stop the hemorrhaging. If anything I suspect it would accelerate it since most of whom you’d term “conservatives” who were disaffected have already left.

As for losing historic church buildings, that comes part and parcel with losing members. And is again, not a unique ECUSA trait. My grandmother’s Roman Catholic church along with several others was sold off in the last decade (though her’s parish church ended up in a sedevacatist sect’s hands much to the Diocese chagrin).

 

[Usige]

You know what? I think if the church feels pressure from Africa or Canterbury, for example, then they might back down on a lot of their liberal and/or unorthodox positions.

I have no dog in this fight, but I really don’t see the Episcopal church backing down. My observation is the more the orthodox members cry foul, the more joy the leadership takes in saying “no one can tell us what to do”. If you mean saved as returning to traditional Christian teachings and mores then I think the only chance of saving Anglicanism in North America is to eject the Episcopal and Canadian churches in favor of ACNA. I don’t know that it will happen anytime soon, but I do wonder if Anglicanism isn’t headed for bifurcation with the African churches, ACNA, the Anglican Continuum , etc. holding to orthodox views and the more liberal churches continuing their… innovative… approach to Christianity. At some point you have to wonder if such a split must take place when the teachings diverge so far as to become almost irreconcilable. Personally I don’t know that Canterbury is strong enough to maintain the schizophrenic world view of the worldwide communion.

Just the :twocents: of a semi disinterested party.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The ECUSA? Nope, they are gone, imo. God has handed them over to their own sinful desires.

Anglican movements that try to stay on the straight narrow can, though. And if enough people drop out of the ECUSA then said Anglican movements can form their own sort of “ECUSA” that dwarfs the current one.

When 9-11 happened there wasn’t one abortion in NYC for a entire week. Planned parenthood had to give them away to get it started again. And the lines for confession were wrapped around the block.

Under the right circumstances, the fear of God can change anyone. So who really knows what the future holds.

 

[Padres1969]

I have no dog in this fight, but I really don’t see the Episcopal church backing down. My observation is the more the orthodox members cry foul, the more joy the leadership takes in saying “no one can tell us what to do”. If you mean saved as returning to traditional Christian teachings and mores then I think the only chance of saving Anglicanism in North America is to eject the Episcopal and Canadian churches in favor of ACNA. I don’t know that it will happen anytime soon, but I do wonder if Anglicanism isn’t headed for bifurcation with the African churches, ACNA, the Anglican Continuum , etc. holding to orthodox views and the more liberal churches continuing their… innovative… approach to Christianity. At some point you have to wonder if such a split must take place when the teachings diverge so far as to become almost irreconcilable. Personally I don’t know that Canterbury is strong enough to maintain the schizophrenic world view of the worldwide communion.

Just the :twocents: of a semi disinterested party.

It’s a fair concern, and one that may end up coming to pass. That said, it may not. Remember one of the hallmarks of Anglicanism has for a long time been unity despite difference. How can it not be when you’re talking about a church that runs the gamut from practically Catholic to nearly reformed Protestant.

I mean the RCC and many continuing Anglicans would see the ordination of women as being a “liberal” stance and/or creation. Yet the majority of the Anglican Communion’s provinces allow it. In fact only 9 provinces do not yet ordain women at this point (and 3 of those allow women into the deconate). 24 allow women not only into the priesthood but also the episcopate. It very well may be that the ECUSA is simply ahead of the curve of the AC’s view on certain matters. I mean the women priesthood issue has not irrevocably divided the communion, there’s no guarantee other issues will cause a final division where this particular sticky issue did not. I mean the biggest push back you see today is coming out of Africa and GAFCON, mainly around homosexual issues. And in part that objection is cultural, not theological due to the realities on the ground in Africa and Christianity’s relations in particular with conservative, sometimes radical, Islam.

 

[Little_Sheep]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought “What an ODD question!” Then I read your post and note that you are Episcopalian.

I am sorry that the differing views between some parts of the church has caused you pain. I am a cradle Episcopalian with 16-years of Episcopal Church schooling under my belt and I hail from SC. I have watched the divide splinter my childhood church (which was established in the 1700s) to some extent. It has been hard on my 84-year-old aunt, the matriarch of our family.

I have also been a catechist in my own parish in Georgia for the last 8 years and, from that vantage point, I can tell you that rumors of the death of TEC are greatly exaggerated! We are a smallish church (800+ members) with a vibrant, well-attended, well-supported youth program for all our children. The message of Christ has taken purchase in our hearts and we certainly do not sense any “division.”

I love TEC with all my heart and I will continue to serve God through it, with love and humility, to the end of days. I doubt those days are bearing down, though. I find it unfortunate when TEC is discussed in terms I would rather reserve for Politics, but so be it.

Peace be with you, DEM.

 

[Little_Sheep]

It’s a fair concern, and one that may end up coming to pass. That said, it may not. Remember one of the hallmarks of Anglicanism has for a long time been unity despite difference. How can it not be when you’re talking about a church that runs the gamut from practically Catholic to nearly reformed Protestant.

I mean the RCC and many continuing Anglicans would see the ordination of women as being a “liberal” stance and/or creation. Yet the majority of the Anglican Communion’s provinces allow it. In fact only 9 provinces do not yet ordain women at this point (and 3 of those allow women into the deconate). 24 allow women not only into the priesthood but also the episcopate. It very well may be that the ECUSA is simply ahead of the curve of the AC’s view on certain matters. I mean the women priesthood issue has not irrevocably divided the communion, there’s no guarantee other issues will cause a final division where this particular sticky issue did not. I mean the biggest push back you see today is coming out of Africa and GAFCON, mainly around homosexual issues. And in part that objection is cultural, not theological due to the realities on the ground in Africa and Christianity’s relations in particular with conservative, sometimes radical, Islam.

Indeed, we are a motley bunch. But of course, so is humanity, so we are in good company!

 

[GKC]

I have no dog in this fight, but I really don’t see the Episcopal church backing down. My observation is the more the orthodox members cry foul, the more joy the leadership takes in saying “no one can tell us what to do”. If you mean saved as returning to traditional Christian teachings and mores then I think the only chance of saving Anglicanism in North America is to eject the Episcopal and Canadian churches in favor of ACNA. I don’t know that it will happen anytime soon, but I do wonder if Anglicanism isn’t headed for bifurcation with the African churches, ACNA, the Anglican Continuum , etc. holding to orthodox views and the more liberal churches continuing their… innovative… approach to Christianity. At some point you have to wonder if such a split must take place when the teachings diverge so far as to become almost irreconcilable. Personally I don’t know that Canterbury is strong enough to maintain the schizophrenic world view of the worldwide communion.

Just the :twocents: of a semi disinterested party.

I agree.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I have no dog in this fight, but I really don’t see the Episcopal church backing down. My observation is the more the orthodox members cry foul, the more joy the leadership takes in saying “no one can tell us what to do”. If you mean saved as returning to traditional Christian teachings and mores then I think the only chance of saving Anglicanism in North America is to eject the Episcopal and Canadian churches in favor of ACNA. I don’t know that it will happen anytime soon, but I do wonder if Anglicanism isn’t headed for bifurcation with the African churches, ACNA, the Anglican Continuum , etc. holding to orthodox views and the more liberal churches continuing their… innovative… approach to Christianity. At some point you have to wonder if such a split must take place when the teachings diverge so far as to become almost irreconcilable. Personally I don’t know that Canterbury is strong enough to maintain the schizophrenic world view of the worldwide communion.

Just the :twocents: of a semi disinterested party.

It almost seems like a split would probably be the most healthy thing for both churches. Conservative Anglicans will be able to rebuild their faith, and the mainstream Episcopal Church can continue with their movement.

 

[Padres1969]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought “What an ODD question!” Then I read your post and note that you are Episcopalian.

I am sorry that the differing views between some parts of the church has caused you pain. I am a cradle Episcopalian with 16-years of Episcopal Church schooling under my belt and I hail from SC. I have watched the divide splinter my childhood church (which was established in the 1700s) to some extent. It has been hard on my 84-year-old aunt, the matriarch of our family.

I have also been a catechist in my own parish in Georgia for the last 8 years and, from that vantage point,** I can tell you that rumors of the death of TEC are greatly exaggerated! We are a smallish church (800+ members) with a vibrant, well-attended, well-supported youth program for all our children. The message of Christ has taken purchase in our hearts and we certainly do not sense any “division.”**

I love TEC with all my heart and I will continue to serve God through it, with love and humility, to the end of days. I doubt those days are bearing down, though. I find it unfortunate when TEC is discussed in terms I would rather reserve for Politics, but so be it.

Peace be with you, DEM.

Just to put a personal point on my own perspective, I too don’t see any of this division in my own parish. And parish life is quite vibrant and not really waning at all. Our most recent confirmation/reception/baptism class was quite large and indeed they’ve had to have an extra baptism/confirmation/reception mass every year for the last couple of years in August in addition to the traditional dates on Easter, Pentecost, and All Saint’s Day to keep the numbers at the 3 more traditional days manageable.

And I agree, I too am not fond of seeing our church discussed like a political party.

 

[Padres1969]

It almost seems like a split would probably be the most healthy thing for both churches. Conservative Anglicans will be able to rebuild their faith, and the mainstream Episcopal Church can continue with their movement.

Guess we’d have to disagree. I find the more traditional elements act as a bit of a moderator on the more modern elements of the church. And vice versa as well. I’d hate to lose either side of our overall church completely.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Guess we’d have to disagree. I find the more traditional elements act as a bit of a moderator on the more modern elements of the church. And vice versa as well.

Well I’m not an Episcopalian so my comments are more personal opinions than an intelligent commentary on what is best for the Episcopal Church, don’t mind me .

 

[Little_Sheep]

Just to put a personal point on my own perspective, I too don’t see any of this division in my own parish. And parish life is quite vibrant and not really waning at all. Our most recent confirmation/reception/baptism class was quite large and indeed they’ve had to have an extra baptism/confirmation/reception mass every year for the last couple of years in August in addition to the traditional dates on Easter, Pentecost, and All Saint’s Day to keep the numbers at the 3 more traditional days manageable.

And I agree, I too am not fond of seeing our church discussed like a political party.

It thrills me to say this sounds like my parish and, honestly, like most Episcopal parishes I have a line of sight into.

I don’t want to discount some of the divisions that have occurred in our ranks, but I don’t believe these divisions define us. They certainly fail to capture the beauty of our faith. Even the “never-changing Catholic Church” has divisions here and there…

Let’s grasp hands with our fellow Christians and sally forth to spread the bounty of the everlasting Christ.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Guess we’d have to disagree. I find the more traditional elements act as a bit of a moderator on the more modern elements of the church. And vice versa as well. I’d hate to lose either side of our overall church completely.

Yes, this!!

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Not sure if TEC can be saved. I recently converted from TEC to RCC.

The TEC isn’t following scripture by performing SSMs. Maybe they should make their own apostastic bible (small “b” was intentional).

From what I have heard, and I don’t know how true it is, is that one of the churches I attended growing up is now mostly compromised of SS couples. It is sad that it has come to this. Don’t get me wrong, I love my sisters and brothers in Christ. However, I cannot condone SSM or SS actions.

I hope for unification at some point, but I don’t see that possible as long as TEC and other churches continue to believe in and perform SSM.