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billcu1
Guest
Can the finite mind understand love in it’s highest form that I would guess would be explained in 1 Corin. 13 ?
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, but only as a gift of grace, which is why the Church classifies love as one of the three theological-supernatural-virtues.
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4love2God
Guest
billcu1 asks if a person can Love REAL Big.
So, what is the definition of Love, in this situation?
“Love is** Patient**, Love is Kind … it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. … It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
This is NOT a definition of Love, as much as attributes of Love.
The way I see Love in the REAL World : When a person feels a Spiritual Love for another person, differing amounts of these attributes of Love are expressed at different times.
A parent can stay VERY **patient **with her young Baby as it attempts to do a new “thing” … especially patient for that First Step.
A girl runs up to her Mom in tears, and sobs through a story of what has upset her; Mom can be VERY Kind to her, to help heal that pain.
A person is taking care of his Father, who has Alzheimer’s.
This person who used to strong and well-spoken . . . is now ranting incessantly, has times where he is completely out-of-Touch with what’s going on.
This son is usually **slow to anger **(and doesn’t keep a record of the 1000 times his Father has done inappropriate things.
But beyond that piece-of-Love stuff, there are close relationships where (most of the time), there can be 2 people who can actually Live-out I Corr 13.
Several people I have known over the years have designed situations in which they could keep themselves in a Spiritual Love for a while.
One time was at a Retreat, where we all knew each other, and volunteered to LIVE in a state of Pure Love (as much as is humanly possible) for two 4-hour periods (one each day).
But, most people can hold themselves together Love-wise for a few minutes at a time.
The BIG problem is when you attempt to KEEP yourself at that peak level of Loving.
This is where even most SAINTS falter. Feelings are very temporary.
So, to feel Love for an Hour, it would need to re-newed in your Heart 60 or 100 times.
This takes practice, AND it takes WANNA.
The Truth is, most people do not wanna feel themselves in that rarified Air of warm Love for more than a minute or 2.
It takes a lot of energy, and you have to set your Ego aside, and re-direct your Loving attention to the other person.
This type of Spiritual Love is easiest to direct to God. He’s a lovable Guy.
And, where other people are vastly imperfect … it is said that God IS perfect.
So, since God beams out waves of Love every second of every day, it is easier to return His Love for a little while … in a Pure state (or a Pure-enough state).
So, I would ask the OP: have you EVER felt any of the attributes of Love toward another Human Being?
If so, that’s a good start.
The secret is, to read the rest of that List, and practice trying to give that person a different attribute from the List.
This can turn into a FUN game . . . a Fun and rewarding game.
I have played the Game many times, and I plan to keep playing it for years to come.
So, what is the definition of Love, in this situation?
“Love is** Patient**, Love is Kind … it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. … It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
This is NOT a definition of Love, as much as attributes of Love.
The way I see Love in the REAL World : When a person feels a Spiritual Love for another person, differing amounts of these attributes of Love are expressed at different times.
A parent can stay VERY **patient **with her young Baby as it attempts to do a new “thing” … especially patient for that First Step.
A girl runs up to her Mom in tears, and sobs through a story of what has upset her; Mom can be VERY Kind to her, to help heal that pain.
A person is taking care of his Father, who has Alzheimer’s.
This person who used to strong and well-spoken . . . is now ranting incessantly, has times where he is completely out-of-Touch with what’s going on.
This son is usually **slow to anger **(and doesn’t keep a record of the 1000 times his Father has done inappropriate things.
But beyond that piece-of-Love stuff, there are close relationships where (most of the time), there can be 2 people who can actually Live-out I Corr 13.
Several people I have known over the years have designed situations in which they could keep themselves in a Spiritual Love for a while.
One time was at a Retreat, where we all knew each other, and volunteered to LIVE in a state of Pure Love (as much as is humanly possible) for two 4-hour periods (one each day).
But, most people can hold themselves together Love-wise for a few minutes at a time.
The BIG problem is when you attempt to KEEP yourself at that peak level of Loving.
This is where even most SAINTS falter. Feelings are very temporary.
So, to feel Love for an Hour, it would need to re-newed in your Heart 60 or 100 times.
This takes practice, AND it takes WANNA.
The Truth is, most people do not wanna feel themselves in that rarified Air of warm Love for more than a minute or 2.
It takes a lot of energy, and you have to set your Ego aside, and re-direct your Loving attention to the other person.
This type of Spiritual Love is easiest to direct to God. He’s a lovable Guy.
And, where other people are vastly imperfect … it is said that God IS perfect.
So, since God beams out waves of Love every second of every day, it is easier to return His Love for a little while … in a Pure state (or a Pure-enough state).
So, I would ask the OP: have you EVER felt any of the attributes of Love toward another Human Being?
If so, that’s a good start.
The secret is, to read the rest of that List, and practice trying to give that person a different attribute from the List.
This can turn into a FUN game . . . a Fun and rewarding game.
I have played the Game many times, and I plan to keep playing it for years to come.
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Brendan
Guest
Experience it, yes
participate in it , yes
Understand it, as in having knowledge of all it’s facets? No
By definition, it is infinite in nature. We might have knowledge of it’s attributes, and a limited knowledge of it. If that limited knowledge meets your definition of ‘understand’ then yes, if your definition requires full and complete knowledge, the answer must be no
participate in it , yes
Understand it, as in having knowledge of all it’s facets? No
By definition, it is infinite in nature. We might have knowledge of it’s attributes, and a limited knowledge of it. If that limited knowledge meets your definition of ‘understand’ then yes, if your definition requires full and complete knowledge, the answer must be no
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Robert_Sock
Guest
LOVE comes in layers where each successive layer contains a qualitatively different LOVE. The innermost layers can never be know by us in this lowly world.
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
God the Father loves all that he is, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God loves all his children, as he loves himself.
Beyond my understanding.
God loves all his children, as he loves himself.
Beyond my understanding.
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Amandil
Guest
Love is NOT God therefore love is not infinite.
And yes love can be experienced, reflected on, and understood by a finite mind. Love is the very purpose of our existence and what we were made for.
God wouldn’t make His own children incapable of understanding their own purpose.
What clouds our understanding of love is sin and its effects.
Love is not a mystery. The reason why the God of the universe would love humans so much to die by scourging and a Roman crucifixion to atone for our sins is a great mystery.
And yes love can be experienced, reflected on, and understood by a finite mind. Love is the very purpose of our existence and what we were made for.
God wouldn’t make His own children incapable of understanding their own purpose.
What clouds our understanding of love is sin and its effects.
Love is not a mystery. The reason why the God of the universe would love humans so much to die by scourging and a Roman crucifixion to atone for our sins is a great mystery.
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billcu1
Guest
I disagree with your first sentence where you say God is not love. God in his ultimate simplicity has no attributes. God is love. God is truth, God is knowledge in their most perfect sense.
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billcu1
Guest
Yes I have experienced some of those things. But are feelings reliable ? They are not good or bad but just are. The love I think of is selflessness. and a lack of selfishness. It is also said that “No greater love has no man than this to lay his life down for his friends.” That would be selflessness. But would that also be lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God?
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fhansen
Guest
Self-love is good; “inordinate self-love”, aka “pride”, is not good. One can be self-less, and perform selfless acts, and still love oneself.
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Amandil
Guest
I didn’t say “God is not love”. I said that “love is not God becsuse love is not infinite”. God’s ability to love is infinite because He is infinite, love itself has limits.
God is love, but it in no way follows that “Love is God”. God created love, you are deifying a created thing a placing it on par with God.
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fhansen
Guest
Love is not created; it’s an aspect of God’s essence.
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billcu1
Guest
If I understand Thomism right essence and substance is the same in God. Therefore God has no “possessions”. Nor does he possess things. He is these things in their perfection. Looking at things from the point of view of simplicity. God has no “parts” nor “attributes”. I know we say God loves this and prefers that but that’s also in error from a certain point of view. God loves the sinner hates the sin. All sin is is turning from the unchanging to the changing. Theologica Germanica
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Amandil
Guest
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, but only because God has His source in God.
Yes-or which are rarely divine in origin at any rate.
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4love2God
Guest
billcu1 says : "Are feelings reliable ?
[1] They are not good or bad but just are.
[2] The love I think of is selflessness. and a lack of selfishness.
[3] It is also said that “No greater love has no man than this to lay his life down for his friends.” That would be selflessness. But would that also be lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God?"
Are Human feelings reliable?
In one way, Human feelings are VERY reliable … because we rely on them constantly, to decide what the Reality of each situation is, AND then
we usually respond to that Reality with new feelings, ones that we “Choose” because our Brains have given us that Reality, and the choices of how to react
This second-by-second feeling (to understand and react to Reality) is pretty-much automatic.
[1] Feelings are not good or bad.
I believe that this is partial right, or rather, Right for a portion of the Time.
However, when a person has pre-planned feelings (prejudices), then these Feelings have been created ahead of time, and are NOT True feelings, but they are Patterns of Thought (which carry with them, the associated feelings).
Many of these Patterns are good … a parent who pre-judges that his children are good people (or, that they have good motives for their actions).
A soldier who is in the Battlefield (for his safety at least), will pre-judge every enemy uniform as covering the body of a Deadly foe.
This helps sift-out those feelings of having to judge one’s actual behavior (to change from second-to-second reacting into what is occurring generally).
On the other hand, many times, when a person has pre-judged a person (or situation), the feelings he expresses CAN be Good … or … Bad.
A Step-father spends a lot of his time Lusting after his Step-daughter.
This, I would consider a mostly-Bad emotion.
A person is strongly Hateful of Black people. He might not see one for days at a time, but he reacts to them (in his mind) many times each day.
Jesus has asked us to NOT harbor Hatred in our Hearts.
So, once a person has placed several at-All-times-feel-Hatreds in his Heart and Mind, she has moved away from the complete innocence of having those feelings.
[2] The nature of Selflessness, and its opposite, Selfishness?
There are different reasons for a person to be Selfless. Some reasons are “better” than others :
If a person is VERY selfless, she may:
A) just be depressed, and NOT care about herself.
B) A person could feel that everyone else in the World is more deserving than she is.
C) Or, God wants me to GIVE to others: My time, my love, my attention.
But, the way I see it, selflessness is NOT a constant feeling. It only arises when a choice arises, ME … or … HIM.
The rest of the time, Life goes on, and other emotions come and go.
And, selfishness ALSO has its range of reasons : from I wanna . . . up to . . . I DON’T wanna you to have anything.
[3]** It is also said that ‘No greater love has no man than this to lay his life down for his friends.’ … But [is that a] lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God?"**
This is like other things. There are Good reasons for an action, and less-Good reasons.
Psychologists point to one giving-up-of-one’s-Life situation : A man is beginning to fall off of a ledge (where he would drop 100 feet).
A “universal” reaction pops into most people’s head at this split-second situation.
That instinctive reaction is : Reach out to that man, grab his hand, and try to pull him back from plummeting to his Death (but, then, they BOTH plummet to their Death).
And, most people will react this way … whether (or not) they are particularly selfless (or even if they are VERY selfish).
So, in this circumstance, the action is NOT a lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God."
But beyond that example, I believe that a mother can starve herself to Death, in order to feed her child (or, another Either-Or situation).
And, at this point, I do not see her actions as a lack of self-Love, but a True altruistic act of Love.
So, it is NOT because of a lack of love for me.
It is an act of Love for another (Equally-important) child of God.
And, truly, is he less-of-a-Creature-of-God than I am?
[1] They are not good or bad but just are.
[2] The love I think of is selflessness. and a lack of selfishness.
[3] It is also said that “No greater love has no man than this to lay his life down for his friends.” That would be selflessness. But would that also be lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God?"
Are Human feelings reliable?
In one way, Human feelings are VERY reliable … because we rely on them constantly, to decide what the Reality of each situation is, AND then
we usually respond to that Reality with new feelings, ones that we “Choose” because our Brains have given us that Reality, and the choices of how to react
This second-by-second feeling (to understand and react to Reality) is pretty-much automatic.
[1] Feelings are not good or bad.
I believe that this is partial right, or rather, Right for a portion of the Time.
However, when a person has pre-planned feelings (prejudices), then these Feelings have been created ahead of time, and are NOT True feelings, but they are Patterns of Thought (which carry with them, the associated feelings).
Many of these Patterns are good … a parent who pre-judges that his children are good people (or, that they have good motives for their actions).
A soldier who is in the Battlefield (for his safety at least), will pre-judge every enemy uniform as covering the body of a Deadly foe.
This helps sift-out those feelings of having to judge one’s actual behavior (to change from second-to-second reacting into what is occurring generally).
On the other hand, many times, when a person has pre-judged a person (or situation), the feelings he expresses CAN be Good … or … Bad.
A Step-father spends a lot of his time Lusting after his Step-daughter.
This, I would consider a mostly-Bad emotion.
A person is strongly Hateful of Black people. He might not see one for days at a time, but he reacts to them (in his mind) many times each day.
Jesus has asked us to NOT harbor Hatred in our Hearts.
So, once a person has placed several at-All-times-feel-Hatreds in his Heart and Mind, she has moved away from the complete innocence of having those feelings.
[2] The nature of Selflessness, and its opposite, Selfishness?
There are different reasons for a person to be Selfless. Some reasons are “better” than others :
If a person is VERY selfless, she may:
A) just be depressed, and NOT care about herself.
B) A person could feel that everyone else in the World is more deserving than she is.
C) Or, God wants me to GIVE to others: My time, my love, my attention.
But, the way I see it, selflessness is NOT a constant feeling. It only arises when a choice arises, ME … or … HIM.
The rest of the time, Life goes on, and other emotions come and go.
And, selfishness ALSO has its range of reasons : from I wanna . . . up to . . . I DON’T wanna you to have anything.
[3]** It is also said that ‘No greater love has no man than this to lay his life down for his friends.’ … But [is that a] lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God?"**
This is like other things. There are Good reasons for an action, and less-Good reasons.
Psychologists point to one giving-up-of-one’s-Life situation : A man is beginning to fall off of a ledge (where he would drop 100 feet).
A “universal” reaction pops into most people’s head at this split-second situation.
That instinctive reaction is : Reach out to that man, grab his hand, and try to pull him back from plummeting to his Death (but, then, they BOTH plummet to their Death).
And, most people will react this way … whether (or not) they are particularly selfless (or even if they are VERY selfish).
So, in this circumstance, the action is NOT a lack of love for one’s self as a creature of God."
But beyond that example, I believe that a mother can starve herself to Death, in order to feed her child (or, another Either-Or situation).
And, at this point, I do not see her actions as a lack of self-Love, but a True altruistic act of Love.
So, it is NOT because of a lack of love for me.
It is an act of Love for another (Equally-important) child of God.
And, truly, is he less-of-a-Creature-of-God than I am?
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tonyrey
Guest
We cannot fully understand love in its highest form any more than we can fully understand God but our knowledge of divine love has been given to us by the Son of God. Abstract belief in the Creator has been replaced by love for a man who lived and died for us. That is why so many men, women and children have chosen to live and die for Him. We cannot explain the highest form of love with words but we can appreciate it and experience it directly for ourselves. We can understand that it is the highest form of knowledge and more important than anything else in the world. Without love life is valueless, purposeless and meaningless because we are created for Love and by Love:
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