Can the Holy Spirit dwell in you, yet you still can sin?

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My friend asked me this, He’s a baptist:

“So then how is it possible that God’s spirit could indwell a believer and yet that believer still sin? I know this seems like a dumb question but wouldn’t that mean that the Holy Spirit is then only infallible some of the time? Or that the Holy Spirit only indwells the believer some of the time?”

To give some context, we are discussion about infallibility of the church and I pointed to him that the Pope and the Magisterium were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Any ideas on how i can effectively answer his question?

Thank you in advance,

David
 
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God doesn’t force His will upon us, even as He indwells us. We continue to idolize things other than Him, not putting Him first above all else, attracted to the wrong things, struggling against sin while He patiently works in us. But, OTOH, mortal sin can destroy that vital relationship or communion again, separating ourselves from God. We can die spiritually.
 
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Hi fhansen, i did add a line in my original post to give context. Thank you for your response =)
 
The Holy Spirit tries to make us aware of our conscience so we are aware when we sin, but when we sin, this effect is lessened. I’m unsure if the Holy Spirit ever fully leaves us while we are alive, but we can get into the bad habit of shrugging him off. In fact, when we become so corrupt that we always as a matter of course, ignore the Holy Spirit working within us, we have committed the ultimate sin (the sin that cannot be forgiven, in this life or the next according to scripture). This is because we cannot commune with God when we have totally thrown the Holy Spirit aside. Thus we cannot repent and thus cannot be forgiven.
 
The Catholic Church follow and GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF THROUGH HIS TRUE CHURCH AND THE POPE who stands in the person of Christ. Matthew 16:16-18 7 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Finally Only The Catholic Church has the sole right to interpret the scriptures and to correct errors Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 2 Timothy 3: 13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 1:20-21 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

If you are in grave sins or mortal sin the Holy Spirit will leave us temporally, but when we confess we get the fullness of the Holy Spirit when we repent of our sins,during the sacrament of confession,eg when Samson sinned he did not know, when the Holy Spirit left him, so like wise same here, but Jesus is merciful he waits for us to come back ,he is faithful when we are unfaithful because our weakness.but if we keep on persist in grievous sins, Then God the Holy Spirit leaves us ,and the evil spirits take over ,God respects our personal decision, free will !
 
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DM_P said:
Hi fhansen, i did add a line in my original post to give context. Thank you for your response =)
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Ok. Infallibility is a gift, given to the Church for the purpose of ensuring that no error will enter her teachings on faith and morals. It’s a recognition of our utter dependency on God to know the truth, far superior to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, to name an alternative “authority”, because in the end SS simply makes individual “popes” out of whoever happens to be interpreting Scripture at the time; they become their own authority in actuality, often in disagreement with the next SS adherent. Again, infallibility is strictly a gift, vested in the office of the papacy and the magisterium, for the purpose of precluding error. This gift in no way grants the pope impeccability, freedom from sin. It simply means that God is safegaurding the “deposit of faith” that He gave to His Church when He established it at the inception of Christianity.
 
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God doesn’t “do injury” to our free will. His effects in us can be diminished if we give ourselves over to sin.

Often it’s very gradual…we build up callouses if you will, not able to sense the promptings of the Holy Spirit…“be more patient, be more generous, be less self-focused - more other-oriented”…but we can begin to ignore these promptings, we can distance ourselves from God as is seen in the story of the Prodigal son.

God made us such that our nature could develop “virtues” (strengths, firm dispositions to do the good). In the absence of virtue, we fall into vices, which oppose virtue (pride opposes humility, pusillanimity opposes courage, etc.). Vices make us more prone to sin. Virtues can however be developed and tuned our whole life. The virtues help us continue to do the good. They’re like sails that help us go along in different directions. They make it easier for us to pursue holiness.

But, continuing with the point about the Prodigal son, God can still plant an inspiration (sometimes this is referred to as “actual grace” to distinguish it from something called “sanctifying grace”) to shake us out of ourselves and bring us back closer to Him.

So even the desire to begin again comes from God.
 
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fhansen said:
Again, infallibility is strictly a gift, vested in the office of the papacy and the magisterium, for the purpose of precluding error. This gift in no way grants the pope impeccability, freedom from sin.
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This was my first thought. I think the friend in question is confusing the meaning of infallibility with impeccability.
 
DM_P said:
and yet that believer still sin?
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We can still sin because our will is free to do so.
DM_P said:
wouldn’t that mean that the Holy Spirit is then only infallible some of the time?
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The Holy Spirit is always infallible, we aren’t. This is the hardest point to get across to some of our Sola Scriptura brethren. They will tell you how wrong the Catholic Church is on a teaching and their only proof will be the Holy Spirit guided them to the correct interpretation of that particular verse. Basically, they are saying the Holy Spirit made them infallible when they interpret scripture. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. You can’t take a verse of scripture and say see this verse says the Holy Spirit will guide me when I interpret. I believe the Spirit is guiding me therefor I must be right. The problem here is how do they know the Holy Spirit guided them in the interpretation of the verse that they use to claim their infallibility?
DM_P said:
Or that the Holy Spirit only indwells the believer some of the time?”
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Now this is the question which is at the heart of the matter. What I am about to say is how it makes sense to me, so I am not claiming this to be “OFFICIAL” Catholic teaching.

To me it’s all about Grace. You remember the verse.
Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
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Full of grace? If Mary is “filled to the brim”, with grace, then there must be some of us that are 1/2 full or 1/4 full. I mean there is no way I am about to claim I am anywhere near as Blessed as our Mother.

To me grace is our guide. When we receive the Holy Spirit we get some grace. Now we can allow ourselves to be guided by this grace, which will keep us from sinning, which in turn gives us more grace. Then we can use this grace to guide us to the other sacraments. Which guess what gives us more grace. Which guess what helps us avoid sin and temptation. So now we are really stock pilling on the grace so we let it guide us to feed the hungry, cloth the poor, etc. Which guess what gives us more grace. The Holy Spirit dwells within us but we must cooperate with the grace given to us. The more we cooperate the easier it is for us to follow the guide (The Holy Spirit).

OR

We can ignore this grace, when we sin. Sin damages us in such a way that (To quote Tim Staples) WE LEAK. Yep that’s the words he used. When we sin we leak grace. As we slowly leak grace we slowly lose sight of the Holy Spirit. We lose our footing on the path making it easier for us to sin and fall into temptation.

The “Grace o Meter” is a visual that makes sense to me. Through the Sacraments and good works we are given grace. The more we have the better off we will be. Think of it this way who will be closer to God the believer who goes to Church one hour a week or the believer who goes to Church more frequently and makes Loving God and Loving neighbor a part of every hour of everyday?

God Bless
 
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
We have to understand that the gift of infallibility works within a very narrow range. It strictly prevents error from entering Church teachings on matters of faith and morals. A pope can be a scoundrel and still have this gift operable in his office, even if that means he just keeps his mouth shut and most importantly never makes an ex cathedra statement. Or the Holy Spirit can simply ensure that, if and when the pope does define a doctrine on faith or morals, no error will be included.
 
The indwelling the the Holy Spirit is not the same as other charisms of the Holy Spirit. Mortal sin does indeed cause the Holy Spirit to no long dwell in us.

Most charisms, on the other hand, are gifts given to some for the benefit of all. As gifts, they are not based on merit. They are also not just for the good of the recipient. The general infallibility of the Church in maintaining the truth, especially that of the episcopate, is just such a charism.
 
DM_P said:
So then how is it possible that God’s spirit could indwell a believer and yet that believer still sin?
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I guess I’d ask if he has recieved the Holy Spirit. I’m guessing he would say yes. Then I’d ask if he ever sins. If he says yes, he has answered his own question. If he says no, well that’s a whole different ball of wax.
 
That was the exact response I was thinking. Most Baptists would say that when they were “saved” the Holy Spirit came into them. They also admit that they still sin. How was this overlooked when the question was asked?
 
Yes actually.
Only some of the time
When you are in the state of Grace. Upon sinning mortally, you are then dead.

God doesn’t force His Will on us or stifle our free will.
 
The in dwelling of the Holy Spirit is conditional:

One it requires FAITH

TWO if one sins Mortally [1 John 5:16-17; John 20:19-23], IF the HS is within you; He will depart until you are reunited with Christ

Three It is Impossible for the HS NOT to be Infallible: God CAN be defined as:
ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED

Thanks for asking

Blessings
Patrick
 
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