Can the Pope be Deposed?

[mardukm]

I wanted to point something out in lieu of a past thread that has been closed entitled “Can the Pope Be Excommunicated?” forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567542

A proper distinction was made in that thread between the idea that the Pope can be excommunicated (yes, he can) and the idea that the Pope can be deposed (no, he can’t).

I wanted to point out that a “Pope” can indeed be deposed under one circumstance - if there was an irregularity in his election.

In such an occasion, the principles used for the determination of invalidity is applied - namely, if one of the conditions necessary for a person to be Pope was found to have not been met at the time of the election, then that “Pope” can be deposed, on the principle that such a person was never “Pope” to begin with.

In other words, a Pope whose election was “doubtful” may be deposed.

So I wanted to open up this thread to discuss what could make a papal election invalid?

I think if several of the votes turned out to be invalid for some reason, then the papal election would be invalid.

I imagine if it was discovered that a Pope was a member of the Masons before his election, he would be deposed, since he was no longer a member of the Church by latae sententiae excommunication at the time of his election.

Would the same case apply if it was discovered he was a private heretic (depending on the heresy, I guess) or apostate before he became Pope? I’m not sure why I feel secure he would be deposed if he was a Mason, but not be certain if he was a private heretic or apostate.

Are there any other reasons to regard an election to be invalid?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[PiousTemplar]

Does this mean the Borgian Pope Alexander VI was invalid?

 

[mardukm]

Does this mean the Borgian Pope Alexander VI was invalid?

Thanks for the response. On what grounds would his election be invalid?

That’s the purpose of this thread - to discuss the grounds for the invalidity of a papal election.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Wesley7]

I don’t think so . . because his office is already made intact by at least 1,000 years of papacy.

 

[Wesley7]

Probably not, because the papal office has been intact for hundreds of years.

 

[Hesychios]

Are there any other reasons to regard an election to be invalid?

Blessings,
Marduk

I think the real question is “can a validly elected Pope be deposed?”

 

[Corki]

I imagine if it was discovered that a Pope was a member of the Masons before his election, he would be deposed, since he was no longer a member of the Church by latae sententiae excommunication at the time of his election.

The problem with this reasoning is that being excommunicated doesn’t make one “no longer a member of the Church”. It makes one seperated from the Sacraments. Since no additional Sacrament is conferred upon elevation to Pope, the excommunication wouldn’t make the election invalid.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Corki,

The problem with this reasoning is that being excommunicated doesn’t make one “no longer a member of the Church”. It makes one seperated from the Sacraments. Since no additional Sacrament is conferred upon elevation to Pope, the excommunication wouldn’t make the election invalid.

What you are referring to is known as a “minor excommunication.” AFAIK, such a distinction is no longer utilized by the Catholic Church. An excommunication is an excommunication (whether, minor, major, etc.), and it severs your relationship with the Church. Period. One can’t say if you are no longer a Christian, but if one incurs an excommunication, one is no longer a member of the Catholic Church.

So one who is not a member of the Catholic Church cannot become Pope.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I think the real question is “can a validly elected Pope be deposed?”

That question was already answered in the previous thread. The answer is “NO.”

However, I just recently read an article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia that said something to the effect that a formal deposition is not necessary because the Pope is de facto and de jure no longer Pope by virtue of the law itself. I may have misread it. I’ll try to look for it when I have time.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Corki]

Dear brother Corki,

What you are referring to is known as a “minor excommunication.” AFAIK, such a distinction is no longer utilized by the Catholic Church. An excommunication is an excommunication (whether, minor, major, etc.), and it severs your relationship with the Church. Period. One can’t say if you are no longer a Christian, but if one incurs an excommunication, one is no longer a member of the Catholic Church.

So one who is not a member of the Catholic Church cannot become Pope.

Blessings,
Marduk

Do you have a source for that? Because that’s not included in the canon law section on the results of excommunication. However, canon 1331 says:

Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:

3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

So, if I am understanding correctly, an excommunicated person could be validly elected but could not exrcise any of the duties of the papal office.

 

[Hesychios]

That question was already answered in the previous thread. The answer is “NO.”

However, I just recently read an article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia that said something to the effect that a formal deposition is not necessary because the Pope is de facto and de jure no longer Pope by virtue of the law itself. I may have misread it. I’ll try to look for it when I have time.

Blessings,
Marduk

So what you are claiming is that the bishop of Rome cannot be deposed but it’s OK for the entire church to ignore him and choose another.

Is that correct?

 

[PiousTemplar]

Thanks for the response. On what grounds would his election be invalid?

That’s the purpose of this thread - to discuss the grounds for the invalidity of a papal election.

Blessings,
Marduk

He bribed his way into the Papacy, apparently.

 

[odhiambo]

Are there any other reasons to regard an election to be invalid?
Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, Simony.
If it turns out that simony was involved, that particular election would be considered invalid.

Invalid Papal Election

 

[odhiambo]

He bribed his way into the Papacy, apparently.

Sorry, I posted before I realised we are making the same point.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The problem with this reasoning is that being excommunicated doesn’t make one “no longer a member of the Church”. It makes one seperated from the Sacraments. Since no additional Sacrament is conferred upon elevation to Pope, the excommunication wouldn’t make the election invalid.

Well, St Robert Bellarmine posited that should a pope ever become a heretic, this would mean he would no longer be pope.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

With respect to Pope Alexander VI, the Dominican Girolamo Savonarola tried to begin a movement within the Catholic Church to have him deposed (as a result of his immorality). That didn’t get him very far, but it did bring that pope’s vindictive nature down on the monk quite hard, as we know.

But it was St Catherine of Siena who successfully convinced the three (I believe) popes of her day to all resign so that a legitimate successor could be chosen anew.

Alex

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Alex,

Well, St Robert Bellarmine posited that should a pope ever become a heretic, this would mean he would no longer be pope.

Alex

The problem with this is that (as well respected as we remember him and read his works notwithstanding), it was only his opinion.

If any bishop or faction in the church had another opinion the final determination would be in the hands of the reigning Pope.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I think the real question is “can a validly elected Pope be deposed?”

I would agree. In an invalid marriage is not considered a marriage. By extension, an invalidly elected Pope is not even considered the Pope.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hello sir!

You are right, of course.

On the other hand, Orthodoxy has been opposing heretical popes since 1054!

And while Orthodox writers have praisedd Savonarola, the problem is that Savonarola believed Orthodoxy to be cut off from the true Church . . .

Ah well . . .

Cheers,

Alex

 

[kitkatty]

Well, St Robert Bellarmine posited that should a pope ever become a heretic, this would mean he would no longer be pope.

Alex

Interesting Alex, the Sedes usually refer to that to validate their position concerning the recent Popes.