Can the Queen/Canterbury dissolve Anglicanism?

[PickyPicky]

Tony Blair only officially converted to Catholicism when he was no longer Prime Minister.

Very true. I don’t think that proves you need to be CofE to be accepted among the powerful, though (and we all knew he was going to convert). His successor as prime minister was not CofE. Nor, I think, is the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, nor the Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. Nor, indeed, am I, although as an Englishman I have certain rights which the CofE is obliged to satisfy.

 

[steve-b]

TomS333:

If the Queen or the Archbishop of Canterbury wanted to, would they have the power to dissolve the Anglican Church, since (correct me if I’m wrong here) they are the Heads of the Church of England?

I realise this may lead on to “Can the Pope disband Catholicism?” So I’ll ask that too.

It seems to me that, in either case, the Church is found where a Bishop presides, where word and sacrament are found.

That’s a quote from a letter by St Ignatius, Catholic bishop of Antioch to the Church in Smyrnaea paragraph 8-9. Let’s not also forget, Ignatius also wrote schismatics won’t be going to heaven. Letter to the Philadelphians paragraph 3

That said,

To remain in context of Ignatius then

Bishops aren’t on their own. They don’t make themselves bishop. It assumes they are a valid bishop in the first place ordained and remain a faithful member themselves, of that valid source in this case THE Catholic CHURCH, the only Church Jesus established ch 8. The only Church the apostles were building. Ignatius was a Catholic bishop in the Catholic Church. He was a direct disciple of St John the apostle. He knew the apostles. He was ordained bishop ~69 a.d. We know then where he got his knowledge and teaching of the faith from. He also wrote, the Church of Rome holds the presidency. ANYONE then who is in schism from that Church as Ignatius wrote to the Philadelphians, won’t be going to heaven.

JonNC:

My Anglican Bishop and priest, would still be there, regardless of what the Archbishop of Canterbury does.
BTW, not in communion with the CoE anyway

Keeping with Ignatius teaching, Ignatius has already given his stern warnings.

 

[Angannas]

Remember that the United Kingdom is made up of four countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The CofE is only the established Church in England, the other 3 each have their own Anglican Church, none of which is an established Church. Indeed there is no established Church in either Wales or NI of any type. In Scotland the Church of Scotland is legally the National Church, but it is Presbyterian rather than Anglican and is independent of the state, the Queen is not the Supreme Governor. In practice she changes from an Anglican to a Presbyterian when she crosses the England-Scotland border. The PM after Blair, Gordon Brown, was a Scotsman and a member of the CofS, his father was a minister.
So the relationship between Church and State in the UK is quite complicated and depends ehich part of the United Kingdom you are referring to

 

[Pup7]

Many people in England would give their religion as “CofE” if asked. It doesn’t mean a thing to a significant proportion of those folk. It just indicates that their parents identified as CofE and that they were probably baptised in a CofE church. As routine baptism becomes less commonplace, people are more likely to state that they don’t have a religion.

There are large numbers of people calling themselves CofE who would never, ever go to church or give religion a second thought.

Chuckling because I’m married to one.

He snaps back with “C of E” almost like it’s a reflex, but I think the last time he was in an Anglican church was when his brother got married in 1999. I’ve noticed it’s like an identity thing, and I find it fascinating.

 

[Isca]

Chuckling because I’m married to one.

He snaps back with “C of E” almost like it’s a reflex, but I think the last time he was in an Anglican church was when his brother got married in 1999. I’ve noticed it’s like an identity thing, and I find it fascinating.

Yes, I used to work as a nurse - we asked people their religion when we filled in their casenotes. “CofE, I suppose” was a common response.

 

[Wesrock]

So the answer is “no”. Nor do the Queen or the Archbishop have power to dissolve even the Church of England, which is established by law, led by its bishops, and governed by General Synod.

This isn’t meant as a challenge, but how is this reconciled with Henry VIII’s justification for breaking the C of E with Rome being his kingship superceding the Pope’s authority? (1) Maybe I’ve too much of a pop-culture understanding and (2) I understand that Anglicanism as we know it wasn’t set by Henry VIII but came about with further reforms a generation or so later. Honestly curious here. I’m aware I’m ignorant on the topic.

 

[GKMotley]

Many things are complicated and depend on what sort of things one is referring to. Anglicans are a lot like that.

 

[PickyPicky]

This isn’t meant as a challenge, but how is this reconciled with Henry VIII’s justification for breaking the C of E with Rome being his kingship superceding the Pope’s authority?

Thank you — that’s an interesting question. I’d make two points.

The first is that the transfer of authority to the king did not grant him total competence. The Church remained a centre of power and, of course, there was the special efficacy of the priesthood.

The second lies in the changing nature of kingship. The developing nature of the state saw authority moving from the king to Parliament, and then, in ecclesiastical matters, from king and Parliament to the Church itself. New structures were invented to embody this authority, among them synodical bodies.

The Queen remains Supreme Governor of the Church of England, just as she is Sovereign Lady of the British State. Both rôles have changed, both still exist, both somehow encompass our sense of ourselves as a people, neither is easily resolved into a simple constitutional power.

Odd, isn’t it?

 

[PickyPicky]

In practice she changes from an Anglican to a Presbyterian when she crosses the England-Scotland border.

In practice, yes. Perhaps, since we don’t know the Queen’s personal religious views in detail, it might be better to say that when in Scotland she attends a CofS church.

 

[ltwin]

In practice, yes. Perhaps, since we don’t know the Queen’s personal religious views in detail, it might be better to say that when in Scotland she attends a CofS church.

She’s a low church Anglican. I think I’ve read somewhere she actually prefers Presbyterian worship to much of the high church liturgies of the CofE. A SERVICE FIT FOR THE QUEEN » 5 May 1990 » The Spectator Archive

When he was researching his life of Queen Mary, James Pope-Hennessy broached the subject of Royal church- manship with the Archbishop of Canter- bury, Dr Geoffrey Fisher. ‘They’re all Low Church,’ the primate told him confidently. It’s because they come from abroad.’ As far as the Queen is concerned, Fisher’s statement is as true as it was 30 years ago. Low Church’ remains the best description of her faith: not evangelical — no one in her family has ever been ‘born again’ — but the solid, no-frills, churchmanship of her father and grandfather.

 

[PickyPicky]

She’s a low church Anglican

You evidently know her better than I do.

She must have found her coronation a bit over the top, then.

 

[ltwin]

In the article I link to, it addresses the Coronation. The reason she wasn’t filmed taking Holy Communion is because, apparently, that’s a low church thing.

 

[ltwin]

This isn’t meant as a challenge, but how is this reconciled with Henry VIII’s justification for breaking the C of E with Rome being his kingship superceding the Pope’s authority?

He took control of the church through Acts of Parliament. The Act of Supremacy making Henry VIII Supreme Head of the Church was an act of Parliament. Therefore, what was really happening was not an affirmation that Henry personally had authority over the church. It was that the state itself had control over the national church.

In this understanding, the state and the church are one. Parliament becomes a national synod (representing the most powerful laity and bishops), and the king becomes the chief ecclesiastical officer. And all citizens are expected to be members of the national church.

 

[PickyPicky]

In the article I link to, it addresses the Coronation. The reason she wasn’t filmed taking Holy Communion is because, apparently, that’s a low church thing.

It does. A rather tasteless, gossipy piece, I thought. There is an alternative explanation: that the camera moved away for the moment of Communion as it did for the moment of Annointment — because these moments were thought of too much significance to be the subject of an entertainment medium.

And, of course, Low Church is a matter of churchmanship, not a theological description. It certainly does not imply Calvinism (although Calvinists are to be found here and there in the CofE).

 

[JonNC]

Bishops aren’t on their own. They don’t make themselves bishop. It assumes they are a valid bishop in the first place ordained and remain a faithful member themselves, of that valid source in this case THE Catholic CHURCH, the only Church Jesus established ch 8. The only Church the apostles were building.

And, of course, my Anglican Bishop is.
The Church is not found only and exclusively in communion with any one bishop, even the Bishop of Rome.

 

[ltwin]

And, of course, Low Church is a matter of churchmanship, not a theological description. It certainly does not imply Calvinism (although Calvinists are to be found here and there in the CofE).

Not Calvinism (I’ve never read that she’s a Calvinist), just that she has an affinity to the Church of Scotland.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Bishops aren’t on their own. They don’t make themselves bishop. It assumes they are a valid bishop in the first place ordained and remain a faithful member themselves, of that valid source in this case THE Catholic CHURCH, the only Church Jesus established ch 8. The only Church the apostles were building.

And, of course, my Anglican Bishop is.

is what?

JonNC:

The Church is not found only and exclusively in communion with any one bishop, even the Bishop of Rome.

Jon,

Argue that someday with Jesus who established His Church and Peter’s office over His Church, and wants "perfect" unity with what He established. All must be united (in communion with) one Bishop, (Peter and his successors) That’s what Jesus established.

Schism
the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

 

[JonNC]

the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him

With all due respect, that’s a self-serving Catholic definition which has the impact of intensifying schism, of which Rome is an equal partner and equally guilty.

is what?

A Bishop in His True Church, every bit as much as the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Wesrock]

Thank you. Can parliament still exercise similar authority over the Church? Is there a theology regarding the sovereignty of the legitimate government of the state over the legitimate authority of the Church within the state? Is what was then true now, is what I’m getting at. Or is the role of the state and Church different now? (It seems obvious to me that they are different, but I guess I’m curious whether there is an objectively established theological authority or if it is subjective and can therefore change based on how things were then versus now.

 

[PickyPicky]

Can parliament still exercise similar authority over the Church?

Yes in principle and in extremis Parliament could exercise authority. In practice it does not propose legislation governing the Church, but has a role in approving or rejecting (but not amending) Measures brought before it by General Synod. When passed, such Measures carry legal force as though they were Acts of Parliament.

Matters which do not require parliamentary approval, such as Canons, or legislation subsidiary to Measures already approved, can be determined by General Synod itself.

As to the theology of all this, that goes over my head.