Yes, exactly. It was some strange new doctrine that the Church suddenly came up with, even if the vigil was not being practiced regularly prior to VII. It has roots in Jewish tradition.Yes, I was just pointing out that having a Sunday Mass celebration on the evening before came out of existing tradition. It’s not as if no one ever did this before 50 years ago.
In the Latin Church, this thinking is limited to Sunday and solemnities. For feasts and commemorations and feria days, the celebration begins with morning prayer and ends with night prayer. Liturgical days that are not Sundays or solemnities begin and end at midnight.
With Sundays and solemnities, when does the day end? It’s not sundown since many parishes have Sunday evening Masses as late as 9pm. Is it midnight?
Can you go a little more into that?Yes, I was just pointing out that having a Sunday Mass celebration on the evening before came out of existing tradition. It’s not as if no one ever did this before 50 years ago.
No, it was way before the current canon law and even before the Mass reforms that came out of Vatican II. The first anticipated Mass offered for “regular” Saturday nights was in 1964. The new canon law was 1983.
Yes, Sundays and solemnities also end at midnight. I also clarified my previous post - celebration does not end with evening prayer but night prayer.
And what is the general rule as to the time at which the daily Mass should be celebrated, in relation to the Liturgy of the Hours?
Here is an interesting comment from EWTN:No, it was way before the current canon law and even before the Mass reforms that came out of Vatican II. The first anticipated Mass offered for “regular” Saturday nights was in 1964. The new canon law was 1983.
I think it was just one of those evolutions like adding dialogue to the old Missal.
This is a good question. Unfortunately, this general topic is asked every week, making searching difficult. However, and if you look back maybe 6 months or a year ago you may be able to find some discussion of the Easter Vigil in the first half of the 20th Century. Someone stated that the vigil mass took place on Saturday morning. I don’t think there was any possibility of counting that as your Sunday obligation. I’m also not sure whether it really qualified as Sunday beginning Saturday, or if Easter Vigil was considered its own separate feast.
I think the early 1960s date was when Saturday evening masses could first be routinely offered. However, I think that permission suggested that the masses were for those who were unable to attend on Sunday. In other words, people were “supposed” to attend on Sunday if they could rather than Saturday. That changed with the 1983 CIC, or possibly sooner.
Thanks!
Think about how this worked out in real life. It is 1964, dh works in an electric plant and has a required Sunday shift. He begins to go to Saturday Mass and dw and kiddies come along. Then they give a ride to elderly neighbor who is no longer driving. 8 months later, when dh’s shift change, they all continue going on Saturday night because it is now a habit. The priest isn’t going to ask for everyone’s work schedule to verify that they can’t make any other Mass.
I don’t know the rubrics, but in my parish, a 6:30pm Mass is routinely celebrated on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and we always use the Mass of the day, for example Tuesday, unless the next day is a Holy Day of Obligation, a solemnity.
Same at my parish and even if the solemnity is the next day. I’ only referring to the Latin Masses.
That’s the normal practice.
Didn’t mean to sound so cold! I meant to say “That’s the normal practice around here.”
In modern times it’s also far more convenient for those of us who don’t have our own transportation, at least in more urban areas. City buses frequently run Monday-Saturday. Saturday afternoon Mass means I can take the bus down to the church. Otherwise it’s a 2 mile walk to the nearest church. Trust me, the few weeks when I had a strained knee I was incredibly grateful for the early Vigil Mass!
I have no doubt that is how things worked in real life, and that was probably one of the factors that informed fthe decision to change the rules in 1983.
I think that if you looked at old Breviaries you’d find that on Saturday evening they prayed “Sunday Evening Prayer I” and on Sunday they prayed “Sunday Evening Prayer II” as they do today.
I know in Jewish theology the creation story states, “and the evening and the morning were the first day” and so on. Jewish theology states this proves that God considers the evening the next day and since we’re all from Jewish origins that is where that comes from so you are not technically at Mass on Saturday but on Sunday if it is the vigil mass. That’s also why all Jewish holidays begin the sundown before the date. If it’s an early Saturday morning mass then that doesn’t suffice.