Can The SSPX Handle Coming Home ?

[GerardP]

For the good of his soul, I hope Bishop Williamson eventually returns to Communion with the one True Church.

For the good of the Church, I hope he experiences a radical change in his viewpoints before he returns. No man with his crazy, paranoid, and arrogant views should be a shepherd of the Faithful.

My two cents.

Mickey,

Have you ever met Bishop Williamson?

 

[GerardP]

It’s not that they have explicitly said anything negative. I made this post mainly to emphasize the fact that the bishops and priests of the SSPX are, quite simply, wrong when they say that one form of the Mass is superior to another.

Actually Mickey, you are being deceptive here. “Mass” is a vague term that is often used to describe the Liturgy of the Latin rites exclusively.

There is only one Mass, but there are many ways of celebrating this Mass. Any rite that the Church endorses is valid and legitimate in the eyes of God, no matter how poorly a rite is sometimes said (let’s not forget that many abuses occurred with the Tridentine Rite, a fact that condemns not the rite, but the priest who commits the abuses).

So, you think the Black Mass is legitimate in the eyes of God?

 

[GerardP]

Brockmac, you hit the nail on the head. I love how the so-called Traditionalists refer to the Mass of Pius V as the “True Mass,” as if the numerous valid and beautiful Eastern rites are not equally acceptable to God.

Actually, You are wrong and the SSPX and the “so-called Traditionalists” are correct.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

**“It should be noted that the name Mass (missa) applies to the Eucharistic service in the Latin rites only. Neither in Latin nor in Greek has it ever been applied to any Eastern rite.” **

 

[GerardP]

This could be, and really has so far, been a good discussion. Can we please not start the same old worn out NO vs TLM debate ?

Discussions are always good when everyone is agreeing with everything. The problem occurs when people are promoting errors and falsehoods and other people are buying into them.

There is no reason to debate it now that BXVI’s MP has freed the TLM from stigma.

There is a growing problem of suppression of the Mass still in defiance of the Motu.

And let’s don’t start the traditionalist bashing again. There are other threads with all that going on right now.

It has already been going on in this thread. I’ve only just begun to address it.

One of the most prominent ones is the relentless, unfair and ignorant bashing of Bishop Williamson. He is not crazy. He is not out of Communion and He is not ignorant. He is philosophically well grounded. He is heroically virtuous and he is defending the Church’s teachings without compromise.

My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss the issue, not argue about it. Feel free to tell me everything I say is flat wrong, but please stay on topic.

You don’t get that your whole topic is debatable. When is Rome going to come home to Tradition? This nuttiness of the last 40 years is not Marcel LeFebvre’s creation. When the Popes pull things back together and the bishops stop lying and decieving and politicking and start teaching, then Rome will be home and they will know ultimately who the loyal children were.

 

[Dauphin]

One of the most prominent ones is the relentless, unfair and ignorant bashing of Bishop Williamson. He is not crazy. He is not out of Communion and He is not ignorant. He is philosophically well grounded. He is heroically virtuous and he is defending the Church’s teachings without compromise.

Bishop Williamson is a lunatic, plain and simple. Anyone who believes that the attacks of September 11th were conducted by the American government, or believes that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is anything but an anti-semitic fraud, quite simply lives on a different plane of reality where sane people do not tread.

This man is utterly unfit to have under his charge the pastoral care of a single man or woman. He is unfit to be a priest, never mind a Bishop. He’s a disgrace to the Society of St. Pius X and an embarrassment to all traditional Catholics.

 

[GerardP]

I’m not in any way interested in being Catholic (or any kind of Christian)…but if I were to become Catholic it would be traditionalist Latin or nothing. Granted, for me the attraction is purely external (the Latin, the incense, the Gregorian chant/classical music, the ceremony and reverence, etc), but even at that, that’s all that would even remotely attract me to your church.

You might be attracted to the TLM because it refers so directly to the Jewish traditions that foreshadow the Catholic Mass. There may be a familiarity that you are seeing under the surface.

The reason for converting would be because the Messiah has come and the Mass is the Old Law fulfilled and the true Sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb that reconciles man with His God.

God the Father provided the lamb when Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac. The real lamb was when God the Father did what he did not require of Abraham. Give His Son for the sins of the world. A sacrifice of infinite merit given by God, of God and offered to God. The only sacrifice that could be pleasing to God.

I’ll never understand why a Jew would not want to convert. They are coming home to the Church in a special way that no Gentile could ever fully appreciate. As a Gentile, I’m grafted into the tree of Abraham. As a Jew, they have a birthright to accept the Messiah and enjoy a fulfillment of who they are as a people, a culture and a religion.

 

[GerardP]

Bishop Williamson is a lunatic, plain and simple.

Nonsense.

This man is utterly unfit to have under his charge the pastoral care of a single man or woman. He is unfit to be a priest, never mind a Bishop. He’s a disgrace to the Society of St. Pius X and an embarrassment to all traditional Catholics.

I seriously doubt you’ve ever met the man or taken any time to study him.

 

[I_Believe]

You don’t get that your whole topic is debatable. When is Rome going to come home to Tradition? This nuttiness of the last 40 years is not Marcel LeFebvre’s creation. When the Popes pull things back together and the bishops stop lying and decieving and politicking and start teaching, then Rome will be home and they will know ultimately who the loyal children were.

Hi Gerard, oh I know quite well that having SSPX in the title of a thread will draw those who know what they are going to say in reply before they even read the OP. They can’t bash traditional catholicism, so they bash those who embrace it. Believe me, I know that.

I agree with everything you’ve said. The crisis in the Church can’t be blamed on traditional catholicism, that’s for sure. I firmly believe that the ambiguity of the VII documents enabled the modernists to pick up the ball and run with it.

As far as Williamson, the only thing I dismiss is the conspiracy theories. Other than that, I admire his devotion to Tradition. He is a heretics nightmare.

 

[I_Believe]

Bishop Williamson is a lunatic, plain and simple. Anyone who believes that the attacks of September 11th were conducted by the American government, or believes that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is anything but an anti-semitic fraud, quite simply lives on a different plane of reality where sane people do not tread.

This man is utterly unfit to have under his charge the pastoral care of a single man or woman. He is unfit to be a priest, never mind a Bishop. He’s a disgrace to the Society of St. Pius X and an embarrassment to all traditional Catholics.

I don’t believe in conpiracy theories either, but do you believe he is a heretic?

 

[Dauphin]

You are spewing the kind of mindless, rancid rant that makes the average conservative Catholic look to be a dumb, mindless rube parroting their odd mix of Protestant/Americanism and displaying reasoning abilities forged by watching too much TV.

Mindless, rancid rant? Does this qualify?:

“… I hope none of you believe that 9/11 is what it was presented to be. It was… of course the two towers came down, but it was absolutely for certain not two airplanes which brought down those two towers. They were professionally demolished by a series of demolition charges from [the] top to bottom of the towers.” - Bishop Williamson

Hear the rest of Williamson’s tragically misunderstood positions here:

What lucid, insightful commentary from a true man of God!

I seriously doubt you’ve ever met the man

I want to meet Bishop Williamson about as much as I want to meet David Duke or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Fred Phelps (look up the Westboro baptist church if you don’t know who I’m talking about). Their views hold just about as much weight as his, as far as I’m concerned.

or taken any time to study him.

Some time, but not much. One of his good qualities is that he’s very clear about what he believes. He’s easy enough to figure out.

I suspect you simply parrot whatever morons have been bashing him to prevent themselves from having to re-evaluate their situation. Bishop Sheen used to call it transferring their own guilt to their victims.

I discovered his lunatic comments about 9/11 on my own. The part about the Elders of Zion I did learn from the Catholic Herald and Damian Thomson, who certainly seem to have a small vendetta against him.

I call it like I see it, and Bishop Williamson is a vile, deluded, detestable man unfit to call himself a successor of the apostles.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Nonsense. Only jackasses make statements like that.

What would you know about sanity? From your foaming at the mouth rant, it’s obvious you can’t get past your blind hatred and emotions and whatever other assumptions you’ve decided to latch onto to make yourself feel better.

You sound like all of the other dumb, idiot nutcases that attack Bishop Williamson and ironically you also sound like the lunatics of the Richard Dawkins ilk that attacks anyone who holds any beliefs that are different from his own vile, ill-reasoned emotional venting.

Who has charge of your pastoral care? Because whoever they are, they are failing miserably.

You are spewing the kind of mindless, rancid rant that makes the average conservative Catholic look to be a dumb, mindless rube parroting their odd mix of Protestant/Americanism and displaying reasoning abilities forged by watching too much TV.

I seriously doubt you’ve ever met the man or taken any time to study him. I suspect you simply parrot whatever morons have been bashing him to prevent themselves from having to re-evaluate their situation. Bishop Sheen used to call it transferring their own guilt to their victims.

Don’t you dare quote Bishop Sheen. He remained faithful to the Pope and to the Magesterium until the day he died; for you so-called Traditionalists to cite him is a defamation of this holy man’s name.

You ask me if I have ever met Bishop Williamson. I have absolutely no desire to meet a man who belives that the Protocols are not only factual, but a “gift from God.” Maybe he thinks the Holocaust was a gift from God too - no wait, that didn’t happen. Too bad; if it had, it might have stopped the Jews from collaborating with the Masons to establish the New World Order (oooooooh - ominous silence). Why don’t you read what Popes Pius XI and Pius XII had to say about anti-Semitism and the so-called “Catholics” who promote it?

You also say that Bishop Williamson is not out of communion. That is utter nonsense. He was excommunicated; does that mean absolutely nothing to you people? The Pope, not a bunch of disobedient bishops, decides who is in communion with the Church.

You accuse us of spewing “mindless, rancid rant.” Well, pal, you and your ilk almost stole my soul from Holy Mother Church. If I have anything to say about it, you will not do it to anyone else.

 

[Dauphin]

You accuse us of spewing “mindless, rancid rant.” Well, pal, you and your ilk almost stole my soul from Holy Mother Church. If I have anything to say about it, you will not do it to anyone else.

:clapping:

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Actually, You are wrong and the SSPX and the “so-called Traditionalists” are correct.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

The Eastern Churches may use different words, but the Mass and the Divine Liturgy are fundamentally the same thing: the renewal of Christ’s Sacrifice on Calvary.

And no, a Black Mass would not be legitimate. Though it would technically be valid, it would take a major stretch to suggest that the Church approves such a Mass. Unless, of course, you believe that Paul VI and John Paul II were Satanists (wouldn’t surprise me if you did).

 

[GerardP]

As far as Williamson, the only thing I dismiss is the conspiracy theories. Other than that, I admire his devotion to Tradition. He is a heretics nightmare.

That’s very fair. He doesn’t impose or expect everyone to believe what he suspects about the politics of the day and Lucifer’s ultimate plan to bring the big persecution on the Church.

He does expect people to stay away from sin, pray the Rosary pray for the Pope and support the traditional Catholic faith and family.

“God made the world for one purpose and one purpose only. To get souls to Heaven. All else is a distraction.”

Here’s an interview where he discusses cultural issues and politics including 9/11.

But he’s not alone, and he’s not pulling his hypotheses out of thin air. He’s not the first to notice the globalist trend and the implementation of the blueprint of Antonio Gramscii for the blending of Capitalism and Communism in a globalist economy.

Even Rush Limbaugh “conservative” and non-Catholic can see the edges of the Luciferian trend towards globalism. With the fraud of Global Warming being exposed more and more the blending of economies is being sped up. He’s always known that environmentalism was an excuse for socialism to impose it’s will on the public.

What he hasn’t caught onto yet is the consensus among nations to build a community of power that is not optional. That is why the first Gulph War was necessary to start bringing Islam into the mix. As an unchanging religion, it has to be changed into something “tolerant” and “indifferent” in order to fit in.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Hi Gerard, oh I know quite well that having SSPX in the title of a thread will draw those who know what they are going to say in reply before they even read the OP. They can’t bash traditional catholicism, so they bash those who embrace it. Believe me, I know that.

I agree with everything you’ve said. The crisis in the Church can’t be blamed on traditional catholicism, that’s for sure. I firmly believe that the ambiguity of the VII documents enabled the modernists to pick up the ball and run with it.

As far as Williamson, the only thing I dismiss is the conspiracy theories. Other than that, I admire his devotion to Tradition. He is a heretics nightmare.

At the most fundamental level, Bishop Williamson seems to be motivated by hatred and anger, not love. Such a man can never be a good shepherd of souls. I’ll say what I said before; for his sake, I pray for his conversion, but for the sake of the Church, I pray that this conversion will not happen until he sees the errors in his views.

 

[Dauphin]

I don’t believe in conpiracy theories either, but do you believe he is a heretic?

Certainly not. Everything I’ve heard him say about Catholic doctrine has been perfectly orthodox. But even those who profess the most orthodox beliefs can go to hell:

“What doth it avail thee to discourse profoundly of the Trinity if thou be void of humility, and consequently, displeasing to the Trinity? In truth, sublime words make not a man holy and just: but a virtuous life maketh him dear to God.” - Thomas à Kempis

Bishop Williamson is just about as far from the model of Christ as I can imagine. He is petty, arrogant, dismissive, and vindictive. His petulant nature comes across clearly in each of the mad rants I’ve heard him give. I can only pray that his soul is not as corrupt as his behavior would suggest.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Certainly not. Everything I’ve heard him say about Catholic doctrine has been perfectly orthodox. But even those who profess the most orthodox beliefs can go to hell:

“What doth it avail thee to discourse profoundly of the Trinity if thou be void of humility, and consequently, displeasing to the Trinity? In truth, sublime words make not a man holy and just: but a virtuous life maketh him dear to God.” - Thomas à Kempis

Bishop Williamson is just about as far from the model of Christ as I can imagine. He is petty, arrogant, dismissive, and vindictive. His petulant nature comes across clearly in each of the mad rants I’ve heard him give. I can only pray that his soul is not as corrupt as his behavior would suggest.

As our Evangelical friends would say,

AMEN, BROTHER!!!

However, don’t forget to pray for him, for ultimately, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Quite frankly, I shouldn’t even be on these forums acting like I know what I’m talking about, because I truly am a great sinner.

 

[I_Believe]

Mickey, Dauphin, I agree he gets carried away at times. But I’ll never fault a man who is passionate in his defense of traditional catholicism.

If Williamson would tangle with someone like, say, Kaspar, I’d have his back covered.

He doesn’t bother me. Heretics bother me.

That’s all I have to offer on it.

 

[GerardP]

Don’t you dare quote Bishop Sheen.

I’ll quote anyone I feel like, especially when they provide insight into the hateful rants of Catholics that they would be ashamed to call Catholic.

He remained faithful to the Pope and to the Magesterium until the day he died; for you so-called Traditionalists to cite him is a defamation of this holy man’s name.

Oh sing songs about it. He was 70 by the time the Council ended and he was virtually crushed by the reforms after the council. Listen to his lectures late in life and he was doing all he could to make sense of it to both himself and the faithful that he could still reach. The only time he ever lost his temper was after the council.

You ask me if I have ever met Bishop Williamson. I have absolutely no desire to meet a man w…

I’m not going to bother to read your ignorant rant. Suffice it to say, you don’t know him. I have met him. I know what I’m talking bout. You don’t. You just know gossip. So shut up about him or call him up and talk to him.

You also say that Bishop Williamson is not out of communion. That is utter nonsense. He was excommunicated; does that mean absolutely nothing to you people? The Pope, not a bunch of disobedient bishops, decides who is in communion with the Church.

Well, that just shows how uneducated you are about what the Church teaches about true hierarchical obedience, valid, unjust and invalid excommunications and basic right from wrong.

You accuse us of spewing “mindless, rancid rant.” Well, pal, you and your ilk almost stole my soul from Holy Mother Church. If I have anything to say about it, you will not do it to anyone else.

That’s pure garbage on your part. I’m every bit of a Catholic as anyone. If it makes you comfortable to read lies and screeds by uninformed opportunistic, plaid-jacketed salesman pretending to be apologists, go ahead. It won’t get you anywhere closer to the Truth. I opted not to be so lazy.

I thank God that I actually took the time and effort to study the man, read his writings carefully, listen to his interviews, go out and actually meet him, talk with him and see him in action.

He inspires loyalty because he’s a humble man of Christ, doggedly in love with the Lord. Getting souls to Heaven in the Catholic Church is everything to him. He fights for Christ, he loves his enemies, he has no tolerance for corruption. He will not compromise with modernism at all. 100% Catholicism and nothing less is what he’ll settle for.

He’s a gift from God endowed with intelligence charisma and an amazing ability to discern souls. One on one, he will change topics instantly with a person and zero in on what they are in need of pastorally. Whether it’s a charism or a sign of his intelligence is not to be known, he helps souls. Period.

Anyone who ignores him, attacks him, or doesn’t listen to him is missing out on one of God’s special creatures, placed at this time and place in Church history to hold the line. History will eventually vindicate him as a hero to the Church.

 

[GerardP]

At the most fundamental level, Bishop Williamson** seems **to be motivated by hatred and anger, not love. Such a man can never be a good shepherd of souls. I’ll say what I said before; for his sake, I pray for his conversion, but for the sake of the Church, I pray that this conversion will not happen until he sees the errors in his views.

“Seems.” Like the Spartans and “if.” There is far more hatred directed towards bishop Williamson than anything else. By supposed Catholics that are “loyal” to the Magisterium as the erroneously understand it.

Bishop Williamson is one of the happiest and most joyful men I’ve ever met. He knows the world is a bleak,sinful, fallen place. But he is in love passionately with the Lord. A priest told me, “Bishop Williamson has powerful personality, he always says we should be planting trees on the last day.”