Can the Third Temple (Jerusalem) be rebuild?

[Ghosty]

As a Catholic who came to the Faith through Orthodox Judaism I’m VERY nervous about any attempt to rebuild the Temple, and from BOTH perspectives. From the Catholic perspective it’s obvious: the “Third Temple” would be an affront to God, and would be the bastion of the Adversary. We know something like this will be attempted, but it’s NOT something to look forward to; it will be a great evil in no uncertain terms.

From the Jewish perspective I think it’s a mistake to try and rebuild it without the coming of the Messiah first. Obviously as a Catholic I believe the Messiah has come already, but even from a “Jewish” perspective I think it’s a mistake to pre-empt God’s plan. Those who want to rebuild the Temple before the time of the Messiah are ushering in their own destruction, just as happened the last time the “Third Temple” was attempted. Incidently I feel much the same way about the State of Israel itself, but that’s another issue.

The one thing I know is that whenever the Jewish people have tried to pre-empt God, it’s gone very badly for them, and the fact that some are eager to do so yet again simply astonishes me given the repeated examples from the Tanakh about what happens when anyone, especially the Chosen People, are so rash as to do something like that. God will choose His time and His Messiah, just as He did with King David (of course, again, as a Catholic I believe this has already occurred).

If the Third Temple is attempted, stay far away from Jerusalem. The anger of the Muslim world will be the LEAST of our worries at that point.

Peace and God bless!

 

[ryanoneil]

You might want to read Zech 11 again. It speaks of Israel and Israel only. I’m sure you know that already. But pay attention to what is referred to in verse 11 as “…the afflicted of the flock…” This is the remnant of Israel chosen by Grace that was spoken of by St.Paul in Romans 11:5, what we know as the first Christians. There is always a remnant saved, even now. I for one am grateful God let us gentiles in to his Kingdom, but we should always remember Israel will never stop being a nation before the God if Israel(Jer 31:31-37).

As far as the two staffs being broke, read Ezekial 37:16-22 as how God will reunite Judah and Ephraim after being abandoned out in the nations.

I don’ understand your point. Is it Israel only or Christians? Maybe we agree and are just misunderstanding each other.

The New Covenant has superseded the Old. We are talking about the New Israel which is Christianity. I’m not suggesting the Jews have been discarded by God. The coming of the King (first advent) results in peace to the nations. This is the peace of the New Covenant "I will make a covenant of peace with them (Ezekiel 37:26) The Messiah’s “dominion shall be from sea to sea.” He has established His Church that stretches into every corner of the world. The church is the physical representation on earth of the Kingdom of God in Heaven. Everyone, Jew and Gentile, is united through Christ and the Church.

God has fulfilled His promise to the Jews. He has given them the gift of Christ and Christianity. If you need more proof look at Malachi. “I [God] will put you [the Levitical priesthood] out of my presence . . . You have corrupted the covenant of Levi . . . The Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His Temple . . Then I will draw near to you for judgment . . . Then those who feared the Lord. . . I will spare them as a man spares his som who serves him. . . Behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stuble.” Mal 2:3, 8; 3:1, 5, 16-17; 4:1)

The great and terrible day of the Lord has already come! The Temple was destroyed, because the old had to make way for the new.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

This is truely wonderful that this is happening now. But it will happen literally also.

I’m not sure, exactly, what you are saying? It is happening literally! If you are suggesting an earthly physical reign of Christ in the future, there is no scriptural evidence for it.

Also, I’m still wondering, IF JESUS’ SACRIFICE WAS ONCE FOR ALL, WHY WILL THERE BE FUTURE SACRIFICES NEEDED IN JERUSALEM DURING THE KINGDOM?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The New Jerusalem won’t have a Temple Revelation 21:22

Good point Joe. I had actually forgotten about that passage.

If that’s the case, then, if any temple is rebuilt (and I stess if), then it seems to me that it will either be destroyed at the second coming of Christ, or perhaps raised into heaven at the second coming, or else perhaps relegated to some “other task” which does not directly contradict Jesus’ own divine nature as “The Temple”.

I can almost picture someone standing at an future earthly temple, blaspheming God, screaming at the top of his lungs toward a heavenly glory advancing upon him…

“I am God! I am God!”

Then, with the brightness of his coming, accompanied by the whole host of heaven, Jesus comes down and calmly yet firmly speaks…

You are not God…

I AM that I AM
2 Thessalonians 2:8:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[Lev23]

I don’ understand your point. Is it Israel only or Christians? Maybe we agree and are just misunderstanding each other.

The New Covenant has superseded the Old. We are talking about the New Israel which is Christianity. I’m not suggesting the Jews have been discarded by God.

The great and terrible day of the Lord has already come! The Temple was destroyed, because the old had to make way for the new.

Peace,

Ryan

Sorry to abbreviate your quote.

My point was that you were using Zechariah 11 to prove that, and I’m quoting you Ryan–"No longer would God concern Himself with a holy bloodline."

To be honest, there is no of genitle or the gentile church in view in this chapter of Zechariah. He speaks about the …“afllicted of the flock…”, which is what we now know as the Israeli remnant saved by grace(Romans 11:5).

You just cannot read this scripture and imply that God is done with Israel and a holy bloodline. Do not join those who teach that God does not consider it important that a remnant of Israel is always saved.

Now dont’ get me wrong, I’m grateful God has allowed us Gentiles into his Kingdom, but we got to keep in mind Israel is still in the forefront of the prophecies to come. And that is why I said to you earlier- "You could be on to something. Maybe the OT prophecies concerning Israel are focusing on Israel."

As far as, “The great and terrible day of the Lord has already come!” Well according to prophecy in scripture, there is even a greater and more terrible day of the Lord coming.

 

[Lev23]

I’m not sure, exactly, what you are saying? It is happening literally! If you are suggesting an earthly physical reign of Christ in the future, there is no scriptural evidence for it.

Also, I’m still wondering, IF JESUS’ SACRIFICE WAS ONCE FOR ALL, WHY WILL THERE BE FUTURE SACRIFICES NEEDED IN JERUSALEM DURING THE KINGDOM?

Peace,

Ryan

Well, I’ll say it as simply as you did. There is loads of scriptural eveidence for it!

And why do you wonder about sacrifices in the 1000 year literal Kingdom if you do not believe in a literal Kingdom on earth when the Messiah, Yeshua comes back?

 

[Lev23]

The New Covenant has superseded the Old. We are talking about the New Israel which is Christianity. I’m not suggesting the Jews have been discarded by God. The coming of the King (first advent) results in peace to the nations. This is the peace of the New Covenant "I will make a covenant of peace with them (Ezekiel 37:26) The Messiah’s “dominion shall be from sea to sea.” He has established His Church that stretches into every corner of the world. The church is the physical representation on earth of the Kingdom of God in Heaven. Everyone, Jew and Gentile, is united through Christ and the Church.

Peace,

Ryan

You are right about the church. But you are missing the point(big-time) that according to prophecy, the earth will be, well, lets say “pacified” when the King, the Messiah, Yeshua reigns on it. Right now, the only way the lamb is lying down with the lion is if the lamb is inside the lions belly, etc, etc.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Malachi 1:10-11

10 Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts

Appearsto prophecy the end of the Temple sacrifices; to be replaced by the world-wide, round the clock offering of the mass.

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry to abbreviate your quote.

My point was that you were using Zechariah 11 to prove that, and I’m quoting you Ryan–"No longer would God concern Himself with a holy bloodline."

To be honest, there is no of genitle or the gentile church in view in this chapter of Zechariah. He speaks about the …“afllicted of the flock…”, which is what we now know as the Israeli remnant saved by grace(Romans 11:5).

You just cannot read this scripture and imply that God is done with Israel and a holy bloodline. Do not join those who teach that God does not consider it important that a remnant of Israel is always saved.

Now dont’ get me wrong, I’m grateful God has allowed us Gentiles into his Kingdom, but we got to keep in mind Israel is still in the forefront of the prophecies to come. And that is why I said to you earlier- "You could be on to something. Maybe the OT prophecies concerning Israel are focusing on Israel."

As far as, “The great and terrible day of the Lord has already come!” Well according to prophecy in scripture, there is even a greater and more terrible day of the Lord coming.

I see we have a vastly different understang of this scripture. The sections of Zechariah, we are talking about, have all taken place with Christ’s first advent. (But I’ll leave that for another conversation) The remnant of Israel were Jewish Christians like Paul himself. Although Israel had been unfaithful to the prophetic message of the gospel, God remained faithful them. Proof of His divine fidelity lies in the existence of Jewish Christians.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

You are correct that there is even a greater and more terrible day of the Lord coming, but Jewish Israel is not in the forefront of those prophecies.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Well, I’ll say it as simply as you did. There is loads of scriptural eveidence for it!

And why do you wonder about sacrifices in the 1000 year literal Kingdom if you do not believe in a literal Kingdom on earth when the Messiah, Yeshua comes back?

I understand we view scripture differently.

The point I was trying to make in post #18 is that the scripture you sited has happened already. The past and present day Eucharist is the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles. That prophesy was fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

You are right about the church. But you are missing the point(big-time) that according to prophecy, the earth will be, well, lets say “pacified” when the King, the Messiah, Yeshua reigns on it. Right now, the only way the lamb is lying down with the lion is if the lamb is inside the lions belly, etc, etc.

You are looking at this Scripture from a modern day perspective. The early Christians recognized the fulfillment and did see the lion lay down with the lamb. First there were Temple Jews trying to kill them. Many converted, the ones who stayed in the Temple were destroyed. There were also Romans killing them. They converted and their empire vanished. The barbarians laid down their weapons and converted. Should I continue?

You are looking for to literal a fulfillment of Scripture. If you read it carefully you’ll see that God never envisioned a physical, 1,000 year, political kingdom. Christ is reigning now in heaven and His Kingdom has grown for 2,000 years. He rules the millenium Kingdom now. It might not seem like it, but Christ has been dealing with His enemies the whole time. Dealing with enemies is what reigning is all about.

Don’t get me wrong prophecy can, and probably will repeat itself. But, I can assure you a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not part of that prophecy. When He returns for the final battle; He will destroy his enemy, judge everyone, and time will make way for eternity.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Regarding prophecies, we must avoid the error of the Pharisees. The Pharisees had studied the prophecies in detail and were sure how they would be fulfilled. As a result they were unable to recognize Jesus when He fulfilled them in ways they had not anticipated. Prophecies are only recognized in hindsight. Don’t get so locked into human interpretations that you miss them when they come.

 

[Lev23]

You are looking at this Scripture from a modern day perspective.

Should I continue?

You are looking for to literal a fulfillment of Scripture. If you read it carefully you’ll see that God never envisioned a physical, 1,000 year, political kingdom.

But, I can assure you a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not part of that prophecy.

Peace,

Ryan

Modern day perspective?

Acts 1:3-8
After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

---

The same writer wrote Luke and Acts and showed that the risen Christ was teaching his Apostles from the scriptures in Luke 24:27,32,44,45. In Acts 1:3 Jesus spoke to them about “about the kingdom of God.” The Kingdom is prophesied in the OT, which will be fulfilled very literally, like the prophecies about Jesus were. So it is safe to say that he taught the Kingdom to them out from the scriptures also.

And after this 40 days, the Apostles still asked him if now he is going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus never corrected them by saying Israel as a nation is finished, and all OT prophecies concerning him coming back to rescue Israel should now be spiritualized to the church.

Jesus simply said the time is God’s secret, no one else knows the time or date.

And in Revelation, the Kingdom is revealed to be a 1000 years.

 

[Lev23]

Can the Third Temple be rebuild? Why should it be rebuild? Is not Jesus the New Temple?

It will be rebuilt because scripture says so. It will be the tribulation temple the Anti-Christ will claim he is the God. It will not be the temple in the 1000 year Kingdom.

 

[ryanoneil]

Modern day perspective?

Acts 1:3-8
After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

---

The same writer wrote Luke and Acts and showed that the risen Christ was teaching his Apostles from the scriptures in Luke 24:27,32,44,45. In Acts 1:3 Jesus spoke to them about “about the kingdom of God.” The Kingdom is prophesied in the OT, which will be fulfilled very literally, like the prophecies about Jesus were. So it is safe to say that he taught the Kingdom to them out from the scriptures also.

Read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfillment of this.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Mannyfit75]

It will be rebuilt because scripture says so. It will be the tribulation temple the Anti-Christ will claim he is the God. It will not be the temple in the 1000 year Kingdom.

No it won’t be rebuild. If they try to rebuilt, the construction will be disrupted, God will make sure that it will not be rebuild. Attempts have been made by an Anti-Christian Pagan Emperor of Rome. His attempts failed, because the men tried to rebuild the temple, earthquakes happen in the area.

The Temple is Jesus Christ. Remember he said, “Destroy this Temple, and I will rebuild it in three days.” Jesus’ reign is right now and he is coming soon.

 

[ryanoneil]

And after this 40 days, the Apostles still asked him if now he is going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus never corrected them by saying Israel as a nation is finished, and all OT prophecies concerning him coming back to rescue Israel should now be spiritualized to the church.

2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth.

Matt. 1:1 - Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David.

Luke 1:32 - the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given “the throne of His father David.”

Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” The kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. The King has assigned a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven.

Matt. 13:24-52 -Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is the universal Church on earth.

Matt. 25:1-2 - Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish, further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth.

Mark 4:26-32 - again, the “kingdom of God” is like the seed which grows and develops. The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church.

Luke 9:27 - Jesus says that there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the “kingdom of God.” This kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Christ, which Jesus established by His death and resurrection on earth.

Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree.

Matt 12:28 - “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

Mark 1:15 - “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 17:20-21 - Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he said in reply, “The coming of the kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.”

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Valke2]

You are looking at this Scripture from a modern day perspective. The early Christians recognized the fulfillment and did see the lion lay down with the lamb. First there were Temple Jews trying to kill them. Many converted, the ones who stayed in the Temple were destroyed. There were also Romans killing them. They converted and their empire vanished. The barbarians laid down their weapons and converted. Should I continue?

YOu really believe this constitutes the lamb lying down with the lion?? It seems to me that you are the one looking at Scripture from a modern day perspective (which isn’t a bad thing).

 

[ryanoneil]

YOu really believe this constitutes the lamb lying down with the lion?? It seems to me that you are the one looking at Scripture from a modern day perspective (which isn’t a bad thing).

I was refering to Justin Martyr. I don’t think his perspective would be considered modern day. Ultimately, the issue is not what certain writers of the early Church believed. The crucial issue for me, as a Catholic, revolves around the beliefs held by the successors to the Apostles, the bishops of the early Church.

The Eastern part of the early Church refused to recognize the canonicity of Revelation because some perceived it as premillrnnislist (1000 year earthly reign of Christ). It wasn’t accepted until the Western part of the Church convinced them that premillennialism was not integral to this book.

The Church was willing to reject as inspired any book that did teach premillennialism. They believed the Millennium had begun at Christ’s first advent and would end at His second advent. They believed in a thoroughly spiritual Kingdom, the Church. During the first few centuries of the Church, a thousand years was further than the eye can see.

I understand that Christ and His morality have just as many enemies as friends in the world today. But, dealing with enemies is what reigning entails. Christ isn’t waiting until total victory to reign. The Church on earth and heaven is cooperating with Christ right now. Christ “must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet” (1 Cor 15:25) The overcoming of Christ’s enemies is the main focus of ruling the Kingdom!

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Lev23]

Read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfillment of this.

Peace,

Ryan

Acts 2, St.Peter exhorts those who were pricked in heart to save themselves from among unruly Israel.

In Acts 3, St.Peter addresses all of Israel nationally when he says “Men of Israel”. His message to them was that national repentance is national deliverence, see verse 19-21:

“Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.”

Winky eye right back at ya!