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BillyT92679
Guest
He’d be an Eastern Catholic; it’s just he would be enrolled into the Latin Church. Any Pope has faculties to say both the Novus Ordo and the Divine Liturgy.
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Ghosty
Guest
matthias: Orthodox parishes are hard to find out here. I’m still holding my breath for a regular traditional Mass. I usually go to St. Matthews near Northgate because it’s within walking distance. It’s also a dual-parish, with Latin and Maronite Masses, and the pastor has bifaculties. The Maronite Bishop of the West Coast was here last Sunday and said Mass for us. There are aspects of the parish I don’t like, and there have been times when I’ve wondered if heresy was intentionally being preached there (it’s hard to tell because there are subtleties in speech and context between Maronite and Latin theology, and the pastor is Maronite first and foremost).
Maybe I’ll see you around, and if you are ever interested in visiting a Maronite service, send me a private message!
Maybe I’ll see you around, and if you are ever interested in visiting a Maronite service, send me a private message!
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Hildebrand
Guest
Two more:
Sovereign of the Vatican City State
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
& “Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church” (not just Supreme Pontiff)
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Maccabees
Guest
I think its pretty much an impossiblity since the Orthodox split.
OF course there hasn’t been an Easterner since the split so we have history telling us it ain’t happening.
I think this would be offensive to some EO’s who look for any little thing to complain about the Latina they think this was massive plot to take over the Eastern Orthodox and would mistrust the Bishop or Rome as not being eastern in any way even if he was prior to Pope. I think this would be a stroke of genius one day if the Eastern Orthodox join the Catholic Church to elect one of the recent Eastern Orthodox bishops as Bishop of Rome to ensure the union would stick and the mistrust from east and west would be stamped out once in for all.
OF course there hasn’t been an Easterner since the split so we have history telling us it ain’t happening.
I think this would be offensive to some EO’s who look for any little thing to complain about the Latina they think this was massive plot to take over the Eastern Orthodox and would mistrust the Bishop or Rome as not being eastern in any way even if he was prior to Pope. I think this would be a stroke of genius one day if the Eastern Orthodox join the Catholic Church to elect one of the recent Eastern Orthodox bishops as Bishop of Rome to ensure the union would stick and the mistrust from east and west would be stamped out once in for all.
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JW10631
Guest
Maccabees is correct.
If a Byzantine Catholic were elected to be the Holy Father many Orthodox - especially our good friend Patirarch Alexey in Moscow - would see it as a slap in the face. The MP thinks Ukraine is HIS turf and dislikes intently the existence of the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church - as if all Ukranians were supposed to be subject to HIM.
As pointed out, there have been Popes from the Eastern Churches. It is not likely that our next Holy Father will emerge from their ranks. The Western Church needs -
A strong liturgist to clean up liturgy abuses;
An effective administrator to “lay the wood” on recalcitrant bishops that won’t follow instructions;
An effective communicator to get Catholics from wealthier countries to help the Catholics in poorer countries, and:
The ability to encourage more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.
We all need to evangelize.
The Eastern and Oriental Churches have their own problems and they need to work them out without the Curia butting in.
If a Byzantine Catholic were elected to be the Holy Father many Orthodox - especially our good friend Patirarch Alexey in Moscow - would see it as a slap in the face. The MP thinks Ukraine is HIS turf and dislikes intently the existence of the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church - as if all Ukranians were supposed to be subject to HIM.
As pointed out, there have been Popes from the Eastern Churches. It is not likely that our next Holy Father will emerge from their ranks. The Western Church needs -
A strong liturgist to clean up liturgy abuses;
An effective administrator to “lay the wood” on recalcitrant bishops that won’t follow instructions;
An effective communicator to get Catholics from wealthier countries to help the Catholics in poorer countries, and:
The ability to encourage more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.
We all need to evangelize.
The Eastern and Oriental Churches have their own problems and they need to work them out without the Curia butting in.
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lyoncoeur
Guest
Until 1978, nobody ever considered a Polish Pope, so…is an eastern rite Pope really THAT far of a longshot?
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Amadeus
Guest
As it has been discussed hereabouts recently, theoretically, any baptized male Catholic can be elected by the conclave Cardinals.
However, it has also been pointed out that that person has to be at least a priest, because of the necessity of ordaining him immediately a bishop upon his acceptance of his election as Pope.
Further ahead, it was noted that, realistically, the next Pope will come from the ranks of the College of Cardinals, more specifically, from among the Cardinal electors themselves, 117 of them to be exact. (Cardinal Sin and Cardinal Rivera, retired Archbishops of Manila and Monterrey, respectively, will be unable to attend the Conclave due to failing health leaving the actual number of electors at 115 as of today.)
Among the 115 electors are only 3 Eastern Rite Cardinals: Cardinal Daoud, retired Patriarch of the Syrians; Cardinal Husar, Major Archbishop of the Ukrainians; and Cardinal Vithayathil, Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabars. Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch of the Maronites, and Cardinal Ghattas, Patriarch of the Catholic Copts, are both over 80 and, therefore, cannot vote although, theoretically, either is eligible for election.
Numerically, there are 112 Latin Rite Cardinals and only 3 Eastern Rite Cardinals in conclave. Unless there is a very cogent reason for the Cardinals to elect an Easterner, history and tradition show that the next Pope would be from the Latin Rite.
If the Cardinal electors are swayed by the Holy Spirit to elect an Eastern Rite Cardinal, the votes should go to Cardinal Daoud for the following reasons:
(1) he is the most senior among the 3 Easterners, being a member of the Order of Bishops within the College of Cardinals;
(2) he is the ex-Prefect of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches of the Roman Curia and is, therefore, known by most, if not all, of his peers in the College; and
(3) he has been a Patriarch of his particular Church, which shows that he has been a leader in his own right and Rite.
Both the Codes of Canon for the West and the East, define and identify only 1 office from which the supreme authority in the Church is exercised: the Office of the Roman Pontiff. The Latin Code (the Eastern Code contains a similar provision) provide that:
Of all the titles emanating from the Pope being the “Roman Pontiff,” conspicuously absent is the title “Patriarch of the West.” Consequently, such title, or office, has been done away with by the Catholic Church or that the Catholic Church has developed into a papal system of governance as opposed to the patriarchal system still extant in the East.
This being the case, there is no problem for an Eastern Rite Cardinal to assume the “throne of Peter” as the Roman Pontiff, or, in today’s parlance, Supreme Pontiff of the universal Church. Yes, he is to be elected as “Bishop of Rome” simply because the “Office of Roman Pontiff” resides in him and from which the title “Pontifex Maximus” or Supreme Pontiff of the universal Church emanates. He need not abandon his own Rite in the process.
As to the effect of an Eastern Pope on our ecumenism efforts with the East, especially the Eastern Orthodox, I refrain from any conjectures for it could be a good subject of a future discussion.
However, it has also been pointed out that that person has to be at least a priest, because of the necessity of ordaining him immediately a bishop upon his acceptance of his election as Pope.
Further ahead, it was noted that, realistically, the next Pope will come from the ranks of the College of Cardinals, more specifically, from among the Cardinal electors themselves, 117 of them to be exact. (Cardinal Sin and Cardinal Rivera, retired Archbishops of Manila and Monterrey, respectively, will be unable to attend the Conclave due to failing health leaving the actual number of electors at 115 as of today.)
Among the 115 electors are only 3 Eastern Rite Cardinals: Cardinal Daoud, retired Patriarch of the Syrians; Cardinal Husar, Major Archbishop of the Ukrainians; and Cardinal Vithayathil, Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabars. Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch of the Maronites, and Cardinal Ghattas, Patriarch of the Catholic Copts, are both over 80 and, therefore, cannot vote although, theoretically, either is eligible for election.
Numerically, there are 112 Latin Rite Cardinals and only 3 Eastern Rite Cardinals in conclave. Unless there is a very cogent reason for the Cardinals to elect an Easterner, history and tradition show that the next Pope would be from the Latin Rite.
If the Cardinal electors are swayed by the Holy Spirit to elect an Eastern Rite Cardinal, the votes should go to Cardinal Daoud for the following reasons:
(1) he is the most senior among the 3 Easterners, being a member of the Order of Bishops within the College of Cardinals;
(2) he is the ex-Prefect of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches of the Roman Curia and is, therefore, known by most, if not all, of his peers in the College; and
(3) he has been a Patriarch of his particular Church, which shows that he has been a leader in his own right and Rite.
Both the Codes of Canon for the West and the East, define and identify only 1 office from which the supreme authority in the Church is exercised: the Office of the Roman Pontiff. The Latin Code (the Eastern Code contains a similar provision) provide that:
The “Office of the Roman Pontiff” is what is known as the “Petrine Office” through which the “Petrine ministry” is to be exercised for the benefit of the universal Church here on earth.
Of all the titles emanating from the Pope being the “Roman Pontiff,” conspicuously absent is the title “Patriarch of the West.” Consequently, such title, or office, has been done away with by the Catholic Church or that the Catholic Church has developed into a papal system of governance as opposed to the patriarchal system still extant in the East.
This being the case, there is no problem for an Eastern Rite Cardinal to assume the “throne of Peter” as the Roman Pontiff, or, in today’s parlance, Supreme Pontiff of the universal Church. Yes, he is to be elected as “Bishop of Rome” simply because the “Office of Roman Pontiff” resides in him and from which the title “Pontifex Maximus” or Supreme Pontiff of the universal Church emanates. He need not abandon his own Rite in the process.
As to the effect of an Eastern Pope on our ecumenism efforts with the East, especially the Eastern Orthodox, I refrain from any conjectures for it could be a good subject of a future discussion.
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mithrandir_maia
Guest
Milan Sasik, the Greek Catholic Bishop of Mukachevo (in Ukraine) was brought up a Latin and was ordained a Latin. (he was given bi - ritual faculties by the Holy See).
risu.org.ua/eng/religion.and.society/interview/article;3324/
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tuopaolo
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Amadeus that doesn’t exclude a lay man from being elected since the waiting periods specified in canon law simply do not apply to the conclave when the laws governing the conclave supersede them as they do in this case precisely because the lay man must be ordained immediately to the episcopate (through three consecutive laying on of hands).
Every single authority I’ve consulted disagrees with your conclusion and I’ve not heard it expressed by anyone besides you, not that that is of much practical import.
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Amadeus
Guest
Dear Tuopaolo:
The UDG is a “special law” governing the election and qualifications of the Roman Pontiff. The Codes of Canon (East and West) are “general laws.”
It abrogates or supercedes the general laws as far as the election and qualifications of the Pope. However, where the provisions are not in conflict, the special law “adopts” the provisions of the general laws. The qualifications of the Roman Pontiff is one such provision.
The UDG requires that the person elected, if not already a Bishop, must immediately be consecrated as a Bishop to validly exercise the authority and powers of the Supreme Pontiff. The Code of Canons contains the provisions for the valid ordination of a person to the episcopacy, thus:
Since the Apostolic See is vacant (during the Conclave), the College of Cardinals is the sole authority to interpret the provisons of UDG and that interpretation points to the upholding of the current norms for the valid ordination to the episcopacy.
A layman simply does not possess the antecedent qualifications.
P.S. At any rate, this lay person versus priest eligibility should be moot and academic because, as I have posted before, the next Pope will come from among the Cardinal electors themselves, most probably a Latin Rite Cardinal and not an Eastern Rite Cardinal by force of numbers and by historical precedence.
The UDG is a “special law” governing the election and qualifications of the Roman Pontiff. The Codes of Canon (East and West) are “general laws.”
It abrogates or supercedes the general laws as far as the election and qualifications of the Pope. However, where the provisions are not in conflict, the special law “adopts” the provisions of the general laws. The qualifications of the Roman Pontiff is one such provision.
The UDG requires that the person elected, if not already a Bishop, must immediately be consecrated as a Bishop to validly exercise the authority and powers of the Supreme Pontiff. The Code of Canons contains the provisions for the valid ordination of a person to the episcopacy, thus:
In the bolded subsection 4 above, the person thus elected must not only be a priest, he must have been a priest for at least 5 years!
Since the Apostolic See is vacant (during the Conclave), the College of Cardinals is the sole authority to interpret the provisons of UDG and that interpretation points to the upholding of the current norms for the valid ordination to the episcopacy.
A layman simply does not possess the antecedent qualifications.
P.S. At any rate, this lay person versus priest eligibility should be moot and academic because, as I have posted before, the next Pope will come from among the Cardinal electors themselves, most probably a Latin Rite Cardinal and not an Eastern Rite Cardinal by force of numbers and by historical precedence.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Tuopaulo’s assertiong is correct. A layman would be ordained a deacon, priest, then bishop immediately. Otherwise the very portion of the law providing for the election of such a layman would itself be null and void. None of these ordinations would be impeded by anything, assuming the cardinals had not so far lost their senses as to elect a known heretic. Thus, a married man, with toddlers in tow, could, in the far-out realms of “what-if”, be elected Supreme Pontiff and set up housekeeping in the Apostolic Palace.
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Amadeus
Guest
Dear JKirk of LVNV:
Where in the *Universi Dominici Gregis * does it say a “lay person” can be elected?
The UDG simply says a “person” can be elected as the Roman Pontiff.
And I believe that that “person,” for him to be validly ordained as Bishop, to be “a priest for at least 5 years.” (Cf. Section 1, Canon 378, Code of Canons.)
The 2nd paragraph of Prov. #90 of the UDG says:
The “usage” of the Church referred to above is Canon 378 of the Code of Canons which I quoted in my previous post.
Much more so, a married layman cannot be ordained as a Bishop because our current discipline does not allow a married episcopacy, in both East and West.
Where in the *Universi Dominici Gregis * does it say a “lay person” can be elected?
The UDG simply says a “person” can be elected as the Roman Pontiff.
And I believe that that “person,” for him to be validly ordained as Bishop, to be “a priest for at least 5 years.” (Cf. Section 1, Canon 378, Code of Canons.)
The 2nd paragraph of Prov. #90 of the UDG says:
(Emphasis mine.)
The “usage” of the Church referred to above is Canon 378 of the Code of Canons which I quoted in my previous post.
Much more so, a married layman cannot be ordained as a Bishop because our current discipline does not allow a married episcopacy, in both East and West.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
The election of the Supreme Pontiff would, I suppose be a law unto itself, superceding all other law. Look, have you googled this? It’s fairly common knowledge. As for the last, we do not, normatively, ordain married men to the priesthood, either. We know, however, that there are, in fact, some married priests in the Latin Rite.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Also, Callistus III (II? Can’t remember, but it was in 1455) was elected when not a priest or bishop.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Also, Callistus III (II? Can’t remember, but it was in 1455) was elected when not a priest or bishop. One further thing to remember about canon law (off topic) is that the Supreme Pontiff can set it aside at any time, either in part or all of it. He holds all legislative and executive power in the Church and has immediate authority over the whole shebang. Thus, if he wanted to ordain a man a priest and then a year latter wanted him for a bishop, it would happen.
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Amadeus
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Dear JKirkLVNV:
I agree, the Supreme Pontiff is not only the legislative and chief executive, he is also the supreme judiciary.
However, in the case we are discussing, the Holy See is vacant, we are in an “interregnum,” there is no Pope.
What do we follow? The UDG for the election of the next Pontiff and his qualifications and eligibility set against the Code(s) of Canons.
-----P.S.
I know that we have married Latin Rite priests, the usual converts from protestantism: Anglicans and Lutherans). And the East has married clergy. But both in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) and in the West, celibate Bishops (of Apostolic Churches) is the current universal norm.
I agree, the Supreme Pontiff is not only the legislative and chief executive, he is also the supreme judiciary.
However, in the case we are discussing, the Holy See is vacant, we are in an “interregnum,” there is no Pope.
What do we follow? The UDG for the election of the next Pontiff and his qualifications and eligibility set against the Code(s) of Canons.
-----P.S.
I know that we have married Latin Rite priests, the usual converts from protestantism: Anglicans and Lutherans). And the East has married clergy. But both in the East (Catholic and Orthodox) and in the West, celibate Bishops (of Apostolic Churches) is the current universal norm.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Dunno, but in all the reading I’ve done, both as a Catholic (17 years now) and a Prot., any baptized Catholic male is eligible. It won’t happen, so it falls into the little bits of arcane knowledge that we sit around and talk about (“hey, do you realize I could be pope?” “Really?” “Yeah!” “Hahahahahahahahahaha, do you want another beer?”), but it’s still a fact.
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Amadeus
Guest
Dear JKirkLVNV:
Theoretically, I know that “any male baptized Catholic” can be Pope!
But if we consider current Church laws and the tradition of the Catholic Church, reality just sinks in: the rules are stacked against us laymen!
Then comes the UDG which, I have argued, limited the election of the next Pope from among the Cardinal electors themselves by virtue of an innocuous phrase, which forms part of Prov. #53.
Theoretically, I know that “any male baptized Catholic” can be Pope!
But if we consider current Church laws and the tradition of the Catholic Church, reality just sinks in: the rules are stacked against us laymen!
Then comes the UDG which, I have argued, limited the election of the next Pope from among the Cardinal electors themselves by virtue of an innocuous phrase, which forms part of Prov. #53.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
It is, as you said, a moot point…now!
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