Can Things get any Worse?

[spauline]

**Can Things get any Worse?
**

There have been six big big times that the world relative to God’s People followed the fallen nature in FULL:

The wickedness of Noah’s Day
The Tower of Babel
Egypt’s Enslavement of the Jews
The Jewish apostasy before the Exile
Maccabbees (OT Antichrist)
Pagan Rome

And what is this SUPREME spirit of the fallen nature:

Two things, two horns of the false prophet: Christ the Lamb has seven horns, the seven Sacraments, the seat of His Redemptive Power, even as horns are usually symbols of power.

The dragon takes two of them and twists them into the summary of all wickedness in the false prophet who has “two horns, like a Lamb” (see Apocalypse 13).

But which two?

Well, heretics retain only two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage, which are really, if you look at it, the summary of all that is good.

How? Well Baptism is the necessary sacrament of salvation, which requires, at least in implicit desire, two things: faith and repentance. Through faith, we are resolved to believe all that is revealed by God as best as we understand it according to a conscience dilligently formed. Through repentance, we turn away from wrongdoing and seek to please God and obey Him. Without these base dispositions, salvation is not possible, whether one lives before or after Christ.

And Marriage, how is Marriage the other basis of all that is good? Because Marriage is the greatest physical sign of what shall be: That all of us are called to MARRY GOD one day, forever and ever.

Therefore, if the base remnant sacraments of hereTICS are the basis of all that is GOOD, then the twisting of them is the ultimate hereSY and the basis of all that is WICKED.

For what is the antithesis of the Baptismal desire except to have NO regard for faith and repentance, that is, to believe as one wishes, completely independent of God, and to live as one wishes, independent of any consideration of God’s will.

And what is the antithesis of the sign of Marriage in Heaven except the earthly FORNICATION, the Whore of Babylon, that is, those persons in this life who are not anticipating and living for the HEAVENLY Marriage to their CreaTOR but are infatutated with this creaTION, fornicating with it, choosing to whore themselves with this worlds’ goods rather than seeking the treasures that are never lost, the love of God and saints forever and ever.

And if you look at all the above six stages, either one or usually both of these lies were embraced to the hilt, the false prophet, that spoke in the Garden of Eden and in all other ages.

But if you look at the modern world, these lies are once again believed through a rampant REJECTION of ALL religion or a great INDIFFERENCE to religion, which is anti-Baptism, and a supreme infatuation with the things of this world rather than the world to come, namely, entertainment, pleasures, egotistical accomplishments, and possessions. This is what secular materialism is, whether in atheistic form, or in relativistic form, and both are the lie of the dragon, of the false prophet.

Therefore, the spiritual condition that reigns in most of the populace of European or European derived civs CANNOT get any worse, seeing as one cannot get any worse than anti-Baptism and anti-Marriage, the two horns of the false prophet.

Therefore, the only hope for these civs is to reverse the great fall upon them, and restore them to some semblance of faith. Else, there is nothing to hold back the end of the world.
This is the restrainer of 2 Thess 2, the Holy Spirit. Once humanity turns away from the Holy Spirit irrevocably, there is nothing to restrain the fullest consequences of spiritual death, which is PHYSICAL death.

 

[JVD]

It does look indeed like the world has become completely irrational and hedonistic. There will be many consequential calamities that must come out of these errors. The value of life will become less and less relevant as humanity disgraces itself. The culture of death is certainly determined.

All we can do is pray at this point. I think its too far gone for man to reverse. We need a large natural or divine event to shake up the world if there is to be any sort of civilization short of mob rule and anarchy.

I think most people are starting to realize that humanity is in very serious trouble and are more or less resigned to it and are just waiting for the axe to fall. There’s no way out of the economic calamity and the debt that the world has amassed to build its new tower of babel. It’s time to pay the piper and his currency is always blood and slavery.

James

 

[Rolltide]

Well, let me provide you with a radical alternative viewpoint…

The Catholic Church is better off now than it has been at just about any point in history!

Now, what would make me say a thing like that? Well, let’s consider the Catholic Church in previous centuries…

1st through 4th centuries: Catholicism wasn’t even legal. Major persecutions and martyrdoms occurring. The church was forced to hide underground. Even by the time of Constantine, less than 10% of the Roman empire was Christian. Gnostic and Arian controversies rocked the Christian Church.

5th through 11th centuries: Western Europe is in collapse. Literacy hovers near 1%. It was difficult, if not impossible, for laypeople to undertake serious religious study. Churches were under attack from Germanic tribes and Vikings. The beginnings of Islam in 622 AD seriously threaten western Europe. Spain and Portugal fall. France barely holds on at the Battle of Tours in 732. Even the Byzantine Empire suffers through serious losses. Again, controversy over several heresies, including Monophysitism.

12th century: The Crusades begin. General warfare between Catholics and Islam. The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church split, causing the first Great Schism in Christianity (yes, I know about the Oriental Orthodox…)

13th to 15th centuries: The Avignon Papacy causes great corruption within the church. The Great (papal) Schism almost fractures Christianity when one, and eventually two other claimants to the papacy arise. John Wycliffe and Jan Hus stir up trouble.

16th and 17th centuries: The Protestant Reformation causes the greatest turmoil the Christian Church has ever known. The end result is the fracturing of Christianity into many dozens of denominations, and the Thirty Years’ War, which devastates Europe.

18th century: The Enlightenment and French Revolution create a massive attack on Catholicism and religion in general both in France and other parts of Europe.

As you can see, compared to other eras in the history of Catholicism, we’re actually in a golden age of sorts. It’s only forty years since a major council (Vatican II), and so many of the kinks resulting from it are now beginning to be resolved. Young people are returning to a more obedient and lively faith. Catholicism is enjoying staggering growth in Africa and other regions of the globe. Although there are some problems, there are ALWAYS problems, and compared to the problems of the past, the ones that are around today are arguably not NEARLY as serious, although they will pose their own challenges.

 

[rwoehmke]

Yes, they could get a lot worse. We could go back in time to those so-called “Golden Ages” of the Church when Bishops and Popes like Alexander VI fornicated freely, the average lay person went through the motions of religion but couldn’t read the Bible if he had one. When receiving the Eucharist was so uncommon that a law had to be passed requiring reception at least once a year, when people were terrified by an image of God as an angry God just waiting to plunge them into hell. No “God is Love” in those days. We do indeed live in a wonderful time for the Church. No longer just the clergy being called to holiness, but the laity as well. I well remember even half a century back when the priests and nuns did everything and we ordinary Catholics in the pew actually paid, prayed, and obeyed, but had no chance to exercise the talents God gave us in behalf of the good of the Church.

In today’s world sin is much more out in the open and is actually openly encouraged by some, but I don’t think it was much less prevalent in years past, just more secretive. Early Church documents, like the Didache indicate that abortion and other problems already existed. Even Augustine, later a saint, was a fornicator and co-habited with his honey.

 

[Nec5]

Not much worse in terms of morality. At least they haven’t started banning salt in our food, forcing us to buy health insurance, or harvesting cells from young human beings. Oh wait…

 

[Pax]

Spauline in Christ,

Twenty years ago I wondered if things could bet worse. I had the same musings fifteen, ten, and even five years ago. Unfortunately, things did get worse during each of these intervals, and the slide continues.

The end of time could be near or far. We are probably best advised to pray and sacrifice now as if we are at the end of the age.

God bless.

 

[spauline]

Well, let me provide you with a radical alternative viewpoint…

The Catholic Church is better off now than it has been at just about any point in history!

Now, what would make me say a thing like that? Well, let’s consider the Catholic Church in previous centuries…

1st through 4th centuries: Catholicism wasn’t even legal. Major persecutions and martyrdoms occurring. The church was forced to hide underground. Even by the time of Constantine, less than 10% of the Roman empire was Christian. Gnostic and Arian controversies rocked the Christian Church.

5th through 11th centuries: Western Europe is in collapse. Literacy hovers near 1%. It was difficult, if not impossible, for laypeople to undertake serious religious study. Churches were under attack from Germanic tribes and Vikings. The beginnings of Islam in 622 AD seriously threaten western Europe. Spain and Portugal fall. France barely holds on at the Battle of Tours in 732. Even the Byzantine Empire suffers through serious losses. Again, controversy over several heresies, including Monophysitism.

12th century: The Crusades begin. General warfare between Catholics and Islam. The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church split, causing the first Great Schism in Christianity (yes, I know about the Oriental Orthodox…)

13th to 15th centuries: The Avignon Papacy causes great corruption within the church. The Great (papal) Schism almost fractures Christianity when one, and eventually two other claimants to the papacy arise. John Wycliffe and Jan Hus stir up trouble.

16th and 17th centuries: The Protestant Reformation causes the greatest turmoil the Christian Church has ever known. The end result is the fracturing of Christianity into many dozens of denominations, and the Thirty Years’ War, which devastates Europe.

18th century: The Enlightenment and French Revolution create a massive attack on Catholicism and religion in general both in France and other parts of Europe.

As you can see, compared to other eras in the history of Catholicism, we’re actually in a golden age of sorts. It’s only forty years since a major council (Vatican II), and so many of the kinks resulting from it are now beginning to be resolved. Young people are returning to a more obedient and lively faith. Catholicism is enjoying staggering growth in Africa and other regions of the globe. Although there are some problems, there are ALWAYS problems, and compared to the problems of the past, the ones that are around today are arguably not NEARLY as serious, although they will pose their own challenges.

rolltide, you didn’t read my article.

Pagan Rome WAS the worst it could get. Didn’t you notice that the world relative to God’s People has been six BIG BIG times before this time just as wicked as today.

You are seeing things only temporally, like “trouble is trouble”, failing to distinguish between DEGREES of spiritual problems.

I am NOT talking about temporal problems like wars and fall of kingdoms. I am talking about the DEGREE of spiritual depravity which the Church must combat.

Islam, spiritually, is not the false prophet COMPLETELY. Not even close. It is like the implicit shell of the Gospel, lacking the Trinity and Incarnation.

But innocently ignorant Muslims can be saved.
The Schismatics are practically Catholic, even if they went out of us and tried to kill us or us them.
The Protestants are still Christians, and their morality was quite close to Catholic until last century. Protestants still have the Christ, and His Scriptures and His two sacraments, but note, it is alot more deficient than schism.

In the Enlightment, yes, things are taking a bad turn. But still not the total false prophet, for rationalism, on which the French Revolution was built, is not TOTALLY deprived, for it retains a NATURAL religiosity: There is one Supreme Being and we should seek by reason to understand this Being and obey the natural law evident from reason. Setting aside, of course, persecuting the Church and other supernaturally religious people.

But today, not even reason is assented to. We are faced with a Europe and its derivations in a condition like pagan Rome, given over the depravities that plauged the pagans before Christianity came to them, and that either totally deny religion (as in atheists) or else are completely indifferent to what is true of God (as in relativists).

But Islam, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and even deism and rationalism are not indifferent or in utter denial of religious truth.

Sure, the atheists of Russia and Eastern Europe, and the secular apostates of the West as well do not kill us right now and they don’t wage wars against us.

But in those times between 300 AD and 1700, whereas TEMPORALLY things might have been bad and painful, it was not an UTTER spiritual darkness, for the persons that may have fought against one another still had a hell of a lot of SPIRITUAL light.

Only secular apostasy is fully dark.

that is I mean, and if you cannot see it, I would say you are not really wise and understanding of what really matters in your faith.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Is there a problem with the “end of the world” coming as a christian?? I thought you all were looking forward to this idea.



What do you really fear? That it is not true?

 

[spauline]

Spauline in Christ,

Twenty years ago I wondered if things could bet worse. I had the same musings fifteen, ten, and even five years ago. Unfortunately, things did get worse during each of these intervals, and the slide continues.

The end of time could be near or far. We are probably best advised to pray and sacrifice now as if we are at the end of the age.

God bless.

see my response to rolltide. I don’t think you are digesting my theology.

 

[StrawberryJam]

see my response to rolltide. I don’t think you are digesting my theology.

I digested it, and spit it out.
Rolltide gave you more than enough to think about. I am having a hard time deciding if I need to question christians real agendas after reading your thread.

 

[spauline]

I digested it, and spit it out.

Actually, I am not saying that the world is ending this time. Remember, from all the six previous times of supreme fallen nature, God was able to bring a greater good, a redemption, and I think that this time is no exception. I think that after the modern world gets a taste of its own medicine, it religious and moral errors of all persuasions, they can come back to Catholicism completely (saving the Jews, they are too stubborn yet, they will not fully get it till history is closing).

The only time the world will end is when the “worse condition” of which I have spoken of becomes PERMANENT, practically incurable, which I believe will be in the next manifestation after this one. Remember, six have gone before us, one is now, and one more is to come. Total of eight, and there eight days of creation, seven extended to eight, and seven kings of the beast extended to eight (Revelation 17:8-11). I don’t think it is a coincidence.

I believe the seven days of creation and the seven headed beast reveal the necessary spiritual template of the history of the redemption of a fallen world.

 

[spauline]

Rolltide gave you more than enough to think about. I am having a hard time deciding if I need to question christians real agendas after reading your thread.

I already understand and think about what Rolltide is thinking about, and I would say even before i acquired my infatuation with the apocalypse some eight years ago, i still would have thought he is not wise.

For in the end, if all kinds of religious wars occurred between 300 and 1700, still the people that die terribly on both sides are able to be saved in much greater chance than today’s people that kill no one who is religious but themselves do not care about religion.

I am talking about SPIRITUAL attacks from without and against the Church, not PHYSICAL attacks. And Islam, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and even Deism and Rationalism all have spiritual deficiencies. But secular apostasy is TOTALLY deficient. Secular apostasy, if embraced in full and culpably, sends one to hell.

For in the end, if I lived in a mudhut without modern medicine and carpet and automatic heat, and doritoes, and video games, and died in a religious war but went to heaven, then that is infinitely better than that I had all of the above and went to hell because I couldn’t be bothered to what is true of God.

 

[spauline]

I am not saying that religious wars are necessarily the ideal. It is too bad that religion got mixed up with war. But from about 300 to 1700, the majority of European and derived socities were quite supernaturally religious in disposition, even if not always the holiest. If this was not so, then why did the EU in its constitution, skip over this entire period, going from pagan Rome immediately to the Enlightenment, as if the intervening history were of no avail to Europe’s heritage and well being?

It is because the modern world sees no value in a society that is driven primarily by religious concerns of a supernatural nature.

Therefore, religion wise, there is a big difference between 300 to 1700 and 1700 to modern times. Big difference.

In the end, it is how many people are saved.

Muslims can be saved. Orthodox can be saved. Protestants can be saved. (and Catholics can be saved). But deists, rationalists, and secular apostates cannot in this condition. They must move up the ladder.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I already understand and think about what Rolltide is thinking about, and I would say even before i acquired my infatuation with the apocalypse some eight years ago, i still would have thought he is not wise.

For in the end, if all kinds of religious wars occurred between 300 and 1700, still the people that die terribly on both sides are able to be saved in much greater chance than today’s people that kill no one who is religious but themselves do not care about religion.

I am talking about SPIRITUAL attacks from without and against the Church, not PHYSICAL attacks. And Islam, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and even Deism and Rationalism all have spiritual deficiencies. But secular apostasy is TOTALLY deficient. Secular apostasy, if embraced in full and culpably, sends one to hell.

For in the end, if I lived in a mudhut without modern medicine and carpet and automatic heat, and doritoes, and video games, and died in a religious war but went to heaven, then that is infinitely better than that I had all of the above and went to hell because I couldn’t be bothered to what is true of God.

I will agree that an unexamined life if not worth living IMHO, but your idea of an examined life goes well beyond that and asks that we go off into your imagination.

 

[Rolltide]

I already understand and think about what Rolltide is thinking about, and I would say even before i acquired my infatuation with the apocalypse some eight years ago, i still would have thought he is not wise.

Muslims can be saved. Orthodox can be saved. Protestants can be saved. (and Catholics can be saved). But deists, rationalists, and secular apostates cannot in this condition. They must move up the ladder.

And what exactly gives you this idea? The Catechism is very clear that ANYONE can be saved, IF they are truly invincibly ignorant. That applies to atheists and agnostics as well. Even an atheist will still have recourse to natural law.

I am also very aware of what you are saying with regards to the spiritual condition of Western Europe, and to a lesser extent, Canada, the US, Australia, and New Zealand. It is not altogether unsimilar to the condition of the original church. And yet, the Catholic Church grew then, and it continues to grow now, just in different areas of the world.

I fully admit that the church is under great spiritual attack both here and in Europe, and that it needs to be addressed. I just don’t think that the crisis is any MORE severe than others that have rocked the church over the centuries.

 

[StrawberryJam]

And what exactly gives you this idea? The Catechism is very clear that ANYONE can be saved, IF they are truly invincibly ignorant. That applies to atheists and agnostics as well. Even an atheist will still have recourse to natural law.

I am also very aware of what you are saying with regards to the spiritual condition of Western Europe, and to a lesser extent, Canada, the US, Australia, and New Zealand. It is not altogether unsimilar to the condition of the original church. And yet, the Catholic Church grew then, and it continues to grow now, just in different areas of the world.

I fully admit that the church is under great spiritual attack both here and in Europe, and that it needs to be addressed. I just don’t think that the crisis is any MORE severe than others that have rocked the church over the centuries.

Just guessing, but the Arian crisis was in my humble estimation from a christian lense, the largest threat from the start, and remants of it remain to this day.