Can this be clarified? Young kids and mortal sin

[Elzee]

Our priest recently told us that 7 year olds cannot commit mortal sin because they just don’t have the capacity to fully realize the impact of their actions to the extent that it would constitute FULL knowledge followed by full consent, regardless of the gravity of the action. He said in all his years of priesthood (several decades), he has yet to meet a seven year old who even has a good grasp on what ‘sin’ is, so there is no way they can be held accountable at a ‘mortal’ sin level. For the record, this priest still advocates confession for young children, so it’s not that he is against children going to confession.

This contradicts what has been said on the Apologist forum - that some children this young can commit mortal sin, but an example is never given, because, I believe, the Apologist said there are too many factors to consider.

It seems to me that if it can be done, then we should be able to give an example - complete with the factors involved - to help people understand. I’m really struggling with how a child this young can commit a mortal sin and potentially be condemned to hell.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Elzee:

Our priest recently told us that 7 year olds cannot commit mortal sin because they just don’t have the capacity to fully realize the impact of their actions to the extent that it would constitute FULL knowledge followed by full consent, regardless of the gravity of the action. He said in all his years of priesthood (several decades), he has yet to meet a seven year old who even has a good grasp on what ‘sin’ is, so there is no way they can be held accountable at a ‘mortal’ sin level. For the record, this priest still advocates confession for young children, so it’s not that he is against children going to confession.

This contradicts what has been said on the Apologist forum - that some children this young can commit mortal sin, but an example is never given, because, I believe, the Apologist said there are too many factors to consider.

It seems to me that if it can be done, then we should be able to give an example - complete with the factors involved - to help people understand. I’m really struggling with how a child this young can commit a mortal sin and potentially be condemned to hell.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

When an individual reaches the “age of reason” they are capable of mortal sin. An particular individual may not be at the “age of reason” at seven. Then there have been five year olds who were very pious and spiritual who clearly understood sin.

 

[anna1978]

Br. Rich SFO:

When an individual reaches the “age of reason” they are capable of mortal sin. An particular individual may not be at the “age of reason” at seven. Then there have been five year olds who were very pious and spiritual who clearly understood sin.

I agree, not every 7-year-old is at the same place in their development, some will know enough to fully understand, others won’t until they’re a bit older.

Anna x

 

[Brendan]

But the general presumption of the Church is that a normally developed child of 7 years old has the necessary reasoning ability to discern right or wrong to a sufficent extent as to be able to commit mortal sin.

he has yet to meet a seven year old who even has a good grasp on what ‘sin’ is, so there is no way they can be held accountable at a ‘mortal’ sin level.

That speaks more towards very bad catechisis than a lack of reasoning skills on the child’s part.

 

[Elzee]

But what would be a mortal sin for a 7 year old who has reached the age of reason? Can you give me an example. I’m still struggling with something concrete.

For example, even if a 7 year old grabs his dad’s gun and shots a member of his family, and even if this 7 year old understands sin (to the extent any 7 year old can), do you really think his 7 year old mind could give full consent with full knowledge? Can he really comprehend *the eternal ramifications?
*

 

[mercygate]

Elzee:

But what would be a mortal sin for a 7 year old who has reached the age of reason? Can you give me an example. I’m still struggling with something concrete.

For example, even if a 7 year old grabs his dad’s gun and shots a member of his family, and even if this 7 year old understands sin (to the extent any 7 year old can), do you really think his 7 year old mind could give full consent with full knowledge? Can he really comprehend *the eternal ramifications? *

Do we have to comprehend the eternal ramifications?

A mortal sin for a 7 year old would be willful disobedience of a reasonable stipulation placed on him by a parent according to the decent order of family and social life.

I believe we waste far too much time trying to parse out the distinction between mortal and venial sin. The difference often comes down to a matter of culpability rather than the objective gravity of the matter. The kid who takes his dad’s gun and shoots a family member has sinned 1) because he has been told not to touch the gun and 2) because any seven year old knows what a gun can do.

A seven year old can understand sin at the level of a seven year old. Much calculation about whether sins are venial or mortal arises from our disinclination to confess them. Loading this stuff on a seven year old is a recipe for building a negligent conscience later in life.

Stamping on the floor and screaming “I hate you!” at one’s mother – full knowledge and will notwithstanding – is a sin, and a normal seven year old knows it.

 

[Brendan]

Elzee:

do you really think his 7 year old mind could give full consent with full knowledge? Can he really comprehend *the eternal ramifications?
*

Yep, why not?

I’ve got a 7 year old. He understands the concept of Heaven and Hell. . He understands that being in Heaven is being with God and being Happy, being in Hell is being without God and a place of great suffering.

He knows which one he wants to go to, and that if he chooses to do certain sins, that will prevent him from going there unless he confesses them. He has a very good idea of what some of those are.

Why would these be too difficult of a concept for a 7 year old to grasp?

 

[grotto]

Elzee:

But what would be a mortal sin for a 7 year old who has reached the age of reason? Can you give me an example. I’m still struggling with something concrete.

---

An example of something that comes to my mind would be a young child - having reached the age of reason (by 7yrs unless impaired)
willfully hurts an animal by striking or some painful action. Maybe the animal belongs to someone the child dislikes, etc. He feels the bad action but hardens his heart. He is caught doing it and is corrected “You mustn’t do something like that to the poor dog or cat, that is being mean and cruel. This is one of God’s creatures that have been given to mankind for us to take care of; God is sad for the animal that is hurting because of you”. Now if the kid decides to do it again when he thinks nobody is looking, he is definitely sinning and needs spiritual help, Confession and Penance - that is the remedy.

That’s how I see it happening. Right?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Elzee:

But what would be a mortal sin for a 7 year old who has reached the age of reason? Can you give me an example. I’m still struggling with something concrete.

For example, even if a 7 year old grabs his dad’s gun and shots a member of his family, and even if this 7 year old understands sin (to the extent any 7 year old can), do you really think his 7 year old mind could give full consent with full knowledge? Can he really comprehend *the eternal ramifications? *

There is also the distinction of the act, certain acts are mortal sins just by doing them. However the amount of guilt depends on the circumstances. Killing an innocent person is gravely sinful even if it’s a five year old, the amount of guilt will vary. We do know that certain acts are sinful. It is not possible to tell the amount of responsibility God assigns to an individual for a given act. That would be judgment of the persons soul which we cannot even think of doing.

 

[mrs_abbott]

So what kind of Sins are Mortal?

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

It doesn’t matter how old the sinner is as long as they meet these three requirements.

 

[Ham1]

Why is it necessary that one who has reached the age of reason necessarily be capable of committing mortal sin? It would seem that a child could have an understanding of sin enough to where they would have some culpability for an act. But a child’s ability to understand and fully consent may not be fully developed which means they can sin, but not necessarily mortally. Since reason is not something that you don’t have one day and have the next, it is reasonable to assume that there would be a period of time where one could be capable of sin but not capable of serious sin.

Also, keep in mind that a good many sins committed by a child are driven by emotions. Children do not have much control over emotions which would also mitigate their culpability.

 

[mercygate]

Ham1:

Why is it necessary that one who has reached the age of reason necessarily be capable of committing mortal sin? It would seem that a child could have an understanding of sin enough to where they would have some culpability for an act. But a child’s ability to understand and fully consent may not be fully developed which means they can sin, but not necessarily mortally. Since reason is not something that you don’t have one day and have the next, it is reasonable to assume that there would be a period of time where one could be capable of sin but not capable of serious sin.

Also, keep in mind that a good many sins committed by a child are driven by emotions. Children do not have much control over emotions which would also mitigate their culpability.

So how do you think this assessment affects to the Sacrament of Confession?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Does anyone know how “the age of reason” was determined?

 

[Ham1]

mercygate:

So how do you think this assessment affects to the Sacrament of Confession?

I’m not sure what you mean?

I guess my point is that there is a certain period within a child’s moral development where they definitely can commit a sin but have yet to reach the point where one could say they possess full knowledge and give full consent, thus mitigating their culpability in such a way as to render the act venial. I’m just saying that it is quite logical that such a “middle” period of moral development would exist.

Now assessing such a thing would be truly difficult and I suppose that would be for the priest to ascertain in the confessional. Then again, priests don’t usually seem to do that. If the sin is mentioned it is forgiven whether it was venial or mortal. Ultimately, I suppose, only God really knows.

 

[mercygate]

Ham1:

I’m not sure what you mean?

I guess my point is that there is a certain period within a child’s moral development where they definitely can commit a sin but have yet to reach the point where one could say they possess full knowledge and give full consent, thus mitigating their culpability in such a way as to render the act venial. I’m just saying that it is quite logical that such a “middle” period of moral development would exist.

Now assessing such a thing would be truly difficult and I suppose that would be for the priest to ascertain in the confessional. Then again, priests don’t usually seem to do that. If the sin is mentioned it is forgiven whether it was venial or mortal. Ultimately, I suppose, only God really knows.

My question was whether you felt that a child need not confess any sin that was not subjectively “mortal” (even if, objectively taken, the matter is grave) based on the mitigations of culpability related to the child’s level of knowledge.

 

[Ham1]

mercygate:

My question was whether you felt that a child need not confess any sin that was not subjectively “mortal” (even if, objectively taken, the matter is grave) based on the mitigations of culpability related to the child’s level of knowledge.

I would say that in teaching a child to make a good confession the child should be instructed to mention as many of their sins as possible (within reason). The child should be taught that confession is not just for mortal sins. I know my children are scared to death of mortal sins.

I would imagine that most 7 and 8 year olds have confessions where they confess things like:

-teasing younger siblings
-disobeying parents
-sneaking a cookie
-saying something mean to someone at school
-being disrespectful to parents and authority

 

[Confiteor]

mrs_abbott:

So what kind of Sins are Mortal?

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

It doesn’t matter how old the sinner is as long as they meet these three requirements.

Even as an adult, these criteria get fuzzy fast…One can do an exam. of conscience using the Ten Commandments, but not all violations of the commandments will be mortal sins (according to advice I’ve heard). For example, stealing may not always be, lying may not always be…Generally, I confess everything I can remember, but that doesn’t exactly sharpen my sense of what’s mortal, it just keeps me going to confession regularly. And sometimes that could lead to receiving unworthily on occasion. Another area that I think is tricky is “full knowledge” – people undoubtedly do things they think are NOT serious --i.e. missing Mass on Sunday. So if they rationalize that’s they are “good” people (let’s say this is true based on the way they live the rest of the week) and presume on God’s mercy, then perhaps they are not committing the mortal sin that would otherwise ascribed. That is, they sincerely think they are excused.

As problematic as this is with young children, it is almost as difficult for adults. And those above are sins of commission. What about sins of omission? How does one evaluate those in the context of the three criteria for mortal sin? i.e. is it failing to feed the poor if you are less generous than you could be in your charitable donations? To some degree we are first responsible for the feeding and clothing of our families before others, but what about things like paying for a child’s college education? Which takes precedence, the tithe or the tuition? It might not be possible to fully support both. Sorry if I am meandering a bit, but I’ve never had a good answer to this…

 

[mercygate]

Ham1:

I would say that in teaching a child to make a good confession the child should be instructed to mention as many of their sins as possible (within reason). The child should be taught that confession is not just for mortal sins. I know my children are scared to death of mortal sins.

I would imagine that most 7 and 8 year olds have confessions where they confess things like:

-teasing younger siblings
-disobeying parents
-sneaking a cookie
-saying something mean to someone at school
-being disrespectful to parents and authority

I could not agree more. What is serious at your stage in life is serious, indeed.

 

[palmas85]

Ham1:

Why is it necessary that one who has reached the age of reason necessarily be capable of committing mortal sin? It would seem that a child could have an understanding of sin enough to where they would have some culpability for an act. But a child’s ability to understand and fully consent may not be fully developed which means they can sin, but not necessarily mortally. Since reason is not something that you don’t have one day and have the next, it is reasonable to assume that there would be a period of time where one could be capable of sin but not capable of serious sin.

Also, keep in mind that a good many sins committed by a child are driven by emotions. Children do not have much control over emotions which would also mitigate their culpability.

It could reasonably be argued that ALL OR MOST sins are drive by emotions. Adults as well as children. Several examples:

A father mid 30’s overcome by grief, armed with a handgun lies in wait for the pedophile who sexually assaulted then killed his son. The father shoots and kills the pedophile as he walks by accompanied by two police who have just arrested him. The pedophile is killed instantly. The father said he could not live with the thought of the pedophile not being convicted at trial.

A woman, 29, mother of three, learns that her husband is having an affair with her sister. The mom, enraged, kills her three children, beheads them, takes the heads to her sisters house, tells the sister “you did this”, then shoots and kills the sister… She says that she had now caused her husband to suffer the same way she had at his betrayal.

An eight year old is sent home early from school after having a fight with two classmates. He knows his father has a small handgun. He retrieves the gun, goes back to school at lunchtime and shoots the classmates. Both survived. When interviewed, he said he wanted both of them dead so they would not pick on him anymore.

A 6 year old first grade student smothers her two month old baby brother because his cries kept her awake at night. She said the baby was too noisy and her parents didn’t care, so so she had to do something so she could sleep. Killing the baby was easy.

An 18 year old girl, sees an IPOD at a Target. She wants it , but not having the money to buy it, she breaks the display window, takes it and calmly strolls out of the store. When accosted by a store security guard, she stabs him in the face with a ballpoint pen in an attempt to escape. When interviewed she says that she had to have the IPOD, and thats all there was to it. Nobody was going to stop her…

An 80 something year old grandmother shoots and kills her son-in law while he is picking up his son for visitation, .because she suspects him of child abuse. She says somebody had to do something.

Real cases, all spurred by emotions… and the utter inability of the people involved to control them

Of the people here, who is responsible? All were driven by extreme emotions. Where do you draw the line? In these scenarios, the 6 year old knew what she was doing the 80 something grandmother. knew what she was doing and so did everyone in between.

I think that seven is as good an age as any to start assigning blame and consequences for ones actions.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Elzee:

But what would be a mortal sin for a 7 year old who has reached the age of reason? Can you give me an example. I’m still struggling with something concrete.

For example, even if a 7 year old grabs his dad’s gun and shots a member of his family, and even if this 7 year old understands sin (to the extent any 7 year old can), do you really think his 7 year old mind could give full consent with full knowledge? Can he really comprehend *the eternal ramifications? *

Murder, for example, is objectively a grave sin. If anyone (pre-7, 7, or post-7) commits grave sin with full knowledge and consent, the grave sin is a mortal sin.

As for subjective judgement, it’s not about what we think. Only God knows the impediments to voluntary sinfulness, and can determine the subjective state of any human soul.