Can this marriage be annulled?

[Phemie]

I may need to modify my use of the term valid. Because you’re right. I have been equating it with sacramental. Would you mind providing an authoritative source with your definition of the term?

Start with Canon 1108 and work your way down to 1129. You will see that with a dispensation for ‘disparity of cult’ a Catholic can be validly married to a non-Christian. The canons all refer to validity, not sacramentality.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I may need to modify my use of the term valid. Because you’re right. I have been equating it with sacramental. Would you mind providing an authoritative source with your definition of the term?

Once again, I am going to give not only the link for an “authoritative” definition, but the links to places that explain DECREE OF NULLITY more clearly.

Answering Common Questions About Annulments
Null From The Beginning
Decree of Nullity and Illegitimacy; Definition of Legal, Valid and Sacramental
Ten Myths of Annulments
Annulment FAQ Archdiocese of Chicago
Holder

 

[whatevergirl]

catholicmommy–I have nothing to add beyond what is here already. Good advice given to you–and also, I echo the poster who suggests to get a very good civil lawyer.

Just wanted to pop in to let you know I’ll be praying for you, and for your husband as well.

 

[miguel]

First, you cannot begin the annulment process until a civil divorce is final. There’s not a diocese in the US that will even consider it – and I suspect it is true elsewhere but will not presume to make that claim…

I didn’t know that, but it makes sense. But then again, I never said you could. All I said was that she needed the advice of a canon lawyer. And she doesn’t need to wait until her civil divorce is final to get that advice.

My friend, miquel, you are stating as fact a number of things that simply are not true about the annulment process as it proceeds in the US…

Such as?

The closest thing that the process reaches in “adversarial” is that there is at least one member of the Tribunal that is strictly defined as defender of the marriage. In that role, he is still not “against” a person seeking a declaration of nullity. He is just there to be sure if a marriage is indeed valid, it is not deemed otherwise…

What if one person wants the annulment and the other doesn’t? You don’t think that can get adversarial? I was just challenging your blanket statement that no annulments are adversarial. I remember reading something about a case, involving one of the Kennedy’s awhile back, where one of the spouses wanted the annulment and the other didn’t. You don’t think that’s an adversarial type situation? Oh, and then there’s Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. People don’t always tell the truth about themselves or the other person in these matters.

 

[ack]

Also read Canon 1055, which observes that valid marriages between two baptized persons are sacramental.

Start with Canon 1108 and work your way down to 1129. You will see that with a dispensation for ‘disparity of cult’ a Catholic can be validly married to a non-Christian. The canons all refer to validity, not sacramentality.

 

[IrishAm]

I didn’t know that, but it makes sense. But then again, I never said you could. All I said was that she needed the advice of a canon lawyer. And she doesn’t need to wait until her civil divorce is final to get that advice.
Such as?
What if one person wants the annulment and the other doesn’t? You don’t think that can get adversarial? I was just challenging your blanket statement that no annulments are adversarial. I remember reading something about a case, involving one of the Kennedy’s awhile back, where one of the spouses wanted the annulment and the other didn’t. You don’t think that’s an adversarial type situation? Oh, and then there’s Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. People don’t always tell the truth about themselves or the other person in these matters.

I just don’t think you have any real world experience with seeking a declaration of nullity.

First, one just doesn’t go out and hire a canon lawyer. They aren’t in the Yellow Pages. The canon lawyers that are on the Tribunal and in the Vatican are not working against one another, as are civil lawyers. They are working in accord to preserve the Faith.

ANYTHING, of course, can be adversarial from a personal standpoint. People can always be mean to one another. In the case where one party is opposed to having the marriage declared as null (which certainly does not appear to be the case here, as he has already moved on to another woman), if the marriage is declared null by both the original diocese and the second diocese which confirms the decision, that person has the right to appeal the decision to the Vatican. That happens, like, almost never (Kennedys and 15th century royalty notwithstanding). In the world in which most of us live, if one of the people in the marriage decides to be hostile by not participating in the procedure, that does not stop the Tribunal from doing its job. It certainly can slow things up, but does not stop things from moving forward.

 

[miguel]

Start with Canon 1108 and work your way down to 1129. You will see that with a dispensation for ‘disparity of cult’ a Catholic can be validly married to a non-Christian. The canons all refer to validity, not sacramentality.

Thanks for that.

 

[miguel]

Once again, I am going to give not only the link for an “authoritative” definition, but the links to places that explain DECREE OF NULLITY more clearly.

Answering Common Questions About Annulments
Null From The Beginning
Decree of Nullity and Illegitimacy; Definition of Legal, Valid and Sacramental
Ten Myths of Annulments
Annulment FAQ Archdiocese of Chicago
Holder

Thank you also.

 

[miguel]

…First, one just doesn’t go out and hire a canon lawyer. They aren’t in the Yellow Pages. The canon lawyers that are on the Tribunal and in the Vatican are not working against one another, as are civil lawyers. They are working in accord to preserve the Faith…

Who said anything about hire? I said consult. And as for all of them working in accord to preserve the faith…that’s naive. I actually went to confession to a priest who was a canon lawyer and on the marriage tribunal in my diocese who pretty much tried to tell me contraception is fine.

 

[IrishAm]

Who said anything about hire? I said consult. And as for all of them working in accord to preserve the faith…that’s naive. I actually went to confession to a priest who was a canon lawyer and on the marriage tribunal in my diocese who pretty much tried to tell me contraception is fine.

Nothing naive about me, miguel. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I’m an old cynic.

So, as an old cynic, where do you think she is going to find this “canon lawyer” with whom to consult??? If she goes looking for one (and I stand by my statement that she certainly does not need to do so), she is going to end up going in a circle – to the diocese, who will send her back to her parish, which is exactly where she should be. Oh, or maybe she can find one “online”.

Don’t make this appear any harder than it is.

I stand by my original premise. She should protect herself legally now and worry about an annulment, should she so choose, after the divorce is final. At which time, she can go to her parish priest and start the paperwork. It’s simply not that complicated . . . although it can certainly be stressful and time consuming, as well as a healing and learning experience.

 

[miguel]

…I stand by my original premise. She should protect herself legally now and worry about an annulment, should she so choose, after the divorce is final…

But let’s get a little hypothetical here. Suppose she wants to know whether an annulment is possible in her case. (This part is not hypothetical.) And let’s say an annulment is very unlikely in her case. If I was in her position, I’d at least want to know that now. It could have some affect on how I’d approach my divorce case. Should I try to fight it? Or should I let it happen?

 

[IrishAm]

But let’s get a little hypothetical here. Suppose she wants to know whether an annulment is possible in her case. (This part is not hypothetical.) And let’s say an annulment is very unlikely in her case. If I was in her position, I’d at least want to know that now. It could have some affect on how I’d approach my divorce case. Should I try to fight it? Or should I let it happen?

Her parish priest (either pastor or assistant, and some parishes have a deacon so assigned) can advise her on this. He would typically be her advocate before the Tribunal and is prepared to do so or, at least, prepared to point her in the direction where she could get more information. I must say, I can’t think of any circumstance when it would affect the divorce case; after all, as OP sadly noted, he is living with someone else now.

Unlike days gone by (our parents and grandparents generations – and I’m a grandparent now so it isn’t something exactly “recent”!), in the US every diocese is required to have a fully staffed Tribunal and parishes and their priests are educated in the process to provide pastoral and practical support for their members. Sadly, too, this has happened because it is such a common situation within the parish community and our Church is dealing with it every day.

(Good morning, miquel and OP – I’m off to Mass and will remember you both there! )

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

But let’s get a little hypothetical here. Suppose she wants to know whether an annulment is possible in her case. (This part is not hypothetical.) And let’s say an annulment is very unlikely in her case. If I was in her position, I’d at least want to know that now. It could have some affect on how I’d approach my divorce case. Should I try to fight it? Or should I let it happen?

The two processes are so very distinct and so very different that you are actually comparing apples and bananas, not even apples and oranges.

Ifyou look at that link to the Archdiocese of Chicago, it lays out in detail on Question 16. What steps are involved in the “formal judicial process” in the Archdiocese of Chicago?

Unlike a civil court action, where one has to hire an attorney, then have the attorney draft the petition or draft an answer to the petition, obtain depositions, wrangle and negotiate with the other party’s attorney, make sure his client isn’t hiding anything, go to the courthouse for the initial “temporary” ruling, come back for the children’s ruling, come back for the final ruling, then if the client and the attorney get along, come back as necessary…

The petitioner for the decree of nullity requests information on where to apply. The person usually ends up in his or her pastor’s office and completes the first form. The pastor forwards it to the tribunal offices, who decides if there is jurisdiction, a need for a full-blown tribunal examination, a “quick” answer due to lack of form or other canonical reason, or if more information is needed. If it proceeds, there is usually a detailed questionnaire which is provided to both the petitioner and the respondent. Each party is also supplied with forms for possible witnesses. What the parties do with those forms determines the next steps- not lawyers, not judges. The parties usually never end up before a tribunal in person. They usually never have to see other if they choose to participate. The tribunal convenes, examines the evidence presented by the advocate(s) and the defender of the bond. If there is proof that the marriage is null, it is declared null and moved to a provincial tribunal called a Court of Second Instance, where paperwork is again reviewed. If that tribunal sees no problem, the parties are informed their marriage was null. Done. Finito. No going back to court again and again, unless the other party still thinks there was a marriage. And the children are not even involved.

 

[miguel]

The two processes are so very distinct and so very different that you are actually comparing apples and bananas, not even apples and oranges…

I wish people would calm down. Did I say the processes are the same somewhere?

 

[miguel]

…I must say, I can’t think of any circumstance when it would affect the divorce case; after all, as OP sadly noted, he is living with someone else now.

She may want to fight him on the divorce anyway, to try to save her marriage (with the knowledge that it won’t be declared null by the Church). That may seem like an exercise in futility to some people. And other people not.

…(Good morning, miquel and OP – I’m off to Mass and will remember you both there! )

Good morning to you and thank you. I definitely need it.

 

[catholicmommy14]

Good morning and God Bless to each and every one of you! I am overwhelmed by the amount of advice and support you all have generously poured into my one little question. You all have given me lots to think about, great links to information for me to research and educate myself and a little bit of humor along the way. Love the spirited debates!

I can’t say it enough -thank you so much for your abundance in every way you have given it!

God Bless!

~~Catholicmommy14

 

[dulcissima]

My boyfriend’s mother had her husband leave her for another woman after 20 plus years of marriage and two children. That was the reason for the divorce, but not the reason for the annulment. She had to look back at what was going on at the time that they exchanged vows, what his view was about what a marriage was and what his intentions were. I don’t know all of the specifics, but I do know that she did receive a declaration of nullity. It seems to me that she also found some peace. She never did remarry, but I think she did discover what she needed to move on and build a new life for herself. She still has pictures of him on the walls of her home, and while she was hurt I think she does still love and care for him as the father of her children and the grandfather of her grandchildren.

I’ve been through the annulment process too, and do recommend that you look into it. You can go through either the diocese in which you were married, the one in which you presently live, or the one in which your ex lives if any of those are different. I’ve heard it is generally best, if you have the choice, to select the smallest diocese because they are typically less loaded down with cases. My case was totally handled through the mail and had none of the conflicts that my divorce had. Hoping that you find your way to a better and more peaceful life for you and your children, and that you grow closer to God in the process.

 

[LynneMarie]

I also think the best person to answer this is your parish priest. He can talk to you, and give you the paperwork to start the annulment proceedings…You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by going this venue…May God be with you in this trial you are facing…Warmly, LynneMarie

 

[Allen537]

Catholicmommy14,

There are, I believe, 12 or so grounds for an annulment. This link provides the grounds for annulment, their corrosponding place in canon law, and a brief commentary on what each one means.

landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/grounds_annul.htm

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I wish people would calm down. Did I say the processes are the same somewhere?

Yes! You inferred that the decree of nullity process was adversarial!

You seem not to know what you’re talking about, yet you came in here with instructions that could have been harmful to the OP, had IrishAm not stepped in.