Can thought occur without physical complexity? Does science require faith?

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manygift1spirit said:
There are some things there which are ambiguous as stated. So…

Do you have a particular simple thing in mind, and a particular complex designed thing in mind? If so, spell them out and we’ll have a go.

Or are you asking this: “How can it be that something simple can design something complex?” Note that is a vastly different question. I can provide a partial answer in the sense that it doesn’t explain how, but demonstrates that it still is the case by construction. Take “omnipotence” in the Platonic sense. Simple as can be, but, yep you guessed it, it can design something complex. I know this may not be exactly the answer you were looking for, but hopefully it is a start.

Or (to be complete) were you asking yet something else?
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Yes. I’m trying to gain an insight into what religious people believe the mechanisms that make the God entity tick are.

For example, I can understand how a computer works. You need a Frontside Bus to transfer infromation in the form of ON/OFF signals from a data storage facility into parallel singal pathways to and from physical RAM and a processor, which is basically a sophisticated switching device that can turn 1 (ON) into 0 (OFF) and vice versa in order to organize information and perform mathematical operations.

Now, can anyone take a stab at breaking God down to component level so that his functionality can be analyzed?
 
buffalo said:
No.

The difference is we made the computer. The computer cannot understand its maker.
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Computers cannot think nor can they self motivate. Human beings can. We can analyze God.

Why would you put your faith in something without even trying to understand how it works?
 
Are you a functionalist 😛

The functionality of God is an interesting approach that I am not sure how to approach. We can functionalise internal states easily enough, and even things like computers. But God?

God is that being which necessarily exists outside time and space and who is for the sake of being. Na, scrap that. I don’t think God can be functionalised, possibly by definition. He is outside of our scope; outside of our realm.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say he is an epiphenominal Being that exists over and above anything else - that would by definition be fallacious. So maybe it’s wrong to think of God in material terms - i.e. alongside this physical complexity line of thought.

The mechanisms that make God the entity tick aren’t there. There are no mechanisms that make him tick, because that would make God some kind of contingent being on a causal chain. Which, he isn’t. He exists outside our causal chain, but yet interacts with it. He is supernatural.

I am having difficulty in figuring out exactly what it is you are looking for though, Moonstruck.
 
NewsTheMan said:
I am having difficulty in figuring out exactly what it is you are looking for though, Moonstruck.
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I am genuinely puzzled and absolutely fascinated as to why people worship a God that they cannot demonstrate the existence of.

I’m trying to understand this phenomenon… At the moment, I don’t get it… It’s a learning curve…
 
NewsTheMan said:
The mechanisms that make God the entity tick aren’t there. There are no mechanisms that make him tick, because that would make God some kind of contingent being on a causal chain. Which, he isn’t. He exists outside our causal chain, but yet interacts with it. He is supernatural.
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If you can accept this, then why is it relevant to explain the creation of the Universe in the first place. If you can accept that causality is unecessary, then surely you can accept any explanation or no explanation as to how the Universe got here?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I am genuinely puzzled and absolutely fascinated as to why people worship a God that they cannot demonstrate the existence of.

I’m trying to understand this phenomenon… At the moment, I don’t get it… It’s a learning curve…
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One word - Revelation.
 
buffalo said:
Man by himself has a difficult time in finding God, as you well demonstrate by your inquiry.

Revelation is God coming to meet man.

Read about it here - GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
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I happen to think it would be an absolutely dreadful thing if I ever did meet God. The idea of an all ecompassing dictatorial invigilation of my every thought, word and deed from the date of my birth to the death of the Universe at possibly beyond is something I find absolutely chilling.

Free will is hardly free will when the alternative to worshipping God in your every thought, word and deed is an eternity of damnation. An infinite punishment for a finite crime.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I happen to think it would be an absolutely dreadful thing if I ever did meet God. The idea of an all ecompassing dictatorial invigilation of my every thought, word and deed from the date of my birth to the death of the Universe at possibly beyond is something I find absolutely chilling.

Free will is hardly free will when the alternative to worshipping God in your every thought, word and deed is an eternity of damnation. An infinite punishment for a finite crime.
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Catholics look forward to the overwhelming love that we would feel. Absolute love.

In any relationship to grow together we have to stand facing each other. God always faces us. He understands we are human and will sin. What He asks is that we ask for forgiveness. If we turn our back on the relationship we lose the love.

He will forgive a contrite person do the very last second. There is always hope with God.
 
buffalo said:
Catholics look forward to the overwhelming love that we would feel. Absolute love.

In any relationship to grow together we have to stand facing each other. God always faces us. He understands we are human and will sin. What He asks is that we ask for forgiveness. If we turn our back on the relationship we lose the love.

He will forgive a contrite person do the very last second. There is always hope with God.
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I’m afraid I don’t feel very contrite. I think his workmanship leaves an awful lot to be desired.
 
buffalo said:
Aahhhhh = any specifics you would like to mention?
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Yes…

99% of his creations on Earth are now extinct and our own bodies are pretty poorly constructed. 32 teeth in mouths that can’t accomodate them, guaranteeing most people who live or lived outside the reach of modern dentistry a lifetime of chronic pain. Appendixes with no obvoious purpose except to become infected now and again and kill us. Parts that pack in long before the 70 year warranty expires?

I mean to say!

And all of this in a Universe of countless trillions upon trillions of cubic light years, 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of which is utterly useless…
 
Moonstruck888 said:
If you can accept this, then why is it relevant to explain the creation of the Universe in the first place. If you can accept that causality is unecessary, then surely you can accept any explanation or no explanation as to how the Universe got here?
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I don’t see your point here. Causality is uncessary for God. well, not unceccesary, more irrelevant when talking about God.

And your point about 99.9999% being useless is more of a subjective notion that you hold. Rather than an objective fact about the universe.
 
NewsTheMan said:
I don’t see your point here. Causality is uncessary for God. well, not unceccesary, more irrelevant when talking about God.

And your point about 99.9999% being useless is more of a subjective notion that you hold. Rather than an objective fact about the universe.
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Well, since the Universe was created by God for man, and 99.99999 etc % of it is so hostile to life that it would destroy us near instantaneously, does that not call it’s usefulness into question?
 
NewsTheMan said:
I don’t see your point here. Causality is uncessary for God. well, not unceccesary, more irrelevant when talking about God.
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This motif comes up constantly, but no one can quite explain why? Why is God immune to causality? What is it about the structure of God that makes God unaffected by time? What evidence is there of this?

You see, you lot are all starting with the conclusion that God exists outside time and space, beyond restrictions, and then trying, fairly desperately I might add, to justify that conclusion by whatever means in the absence of any evidence.
 
99.9999% of it would destroy us? No.

Space is called space for a reaosn, there is a whole lot of nothing. Nothingness cannot destroy us.

I still dont understand your line of thought. If your house was the world, outside your house in the world exists many different things that could destroy you (guns, lions, whatever). But that doesn’t make them less useful things?

You are jumping to conclusions, and basing the intrinsic value of the universe on your incorrect statistics.
 
NewsTheMan said:
99.9999% of it would destroy us? No.

Space is called space for a reaosn, there is a whole lot of nothing. Nothingness cannot destroy us.

I still dont understand your line of thought. If your house was the world, outside your house in the world exists many different things that could destroy you (guns, lions, whatever). But that doesn’t make them less useful things?

You are jumping to conclusions, and basing the intrinsic value of the universe on your incorrect statistics.
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If you were exposed to the hard vacuum of space, you would be dead in a few seconds. Your blood would boil.

Your gun analogy is false. Guns can’t destroy me unless someone consciously uses them to that end. Now, if there was a tsunami or a hurricane, that could destroy me, which only goes to prove that this planet is not a particularly well designed oasis for life.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Yes…

99% of his creations on Earth are now extinct and our own bodies are pretty poorly constructed. 32 teeth in mouths that can’t accomodate them, guaranteeing most people who live or lived outside the reach of modern dentistry a lifetime of chronic pain. Appendixes with no obvoious purpose except to become infected now and again and kill us. Parts that pack in long before the 70 year warranty expires?

I mean to say!

And all of this in a Universe of countless trillions upon trillions of cubic light years, 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of which is utterly useless…
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Your challenge for today is to design and build a better human.
 
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