Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depession?

[TLM08]

I’ve been doing a lot of traditional catholic reading lately and I’ve noticed a common thread of these more traditional writings is the notion that we are to despise this life here on earth and give up all earthly pleasures here in order to attain eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Even in the beautiful prayer “Hail Holy Queen” this life is referred to as a “Valley of Tears”.

I understand and agree with the concept of doing penance and making sacrifices. Popular culture does indeed promote way too much pleasure greed and sinfulness. Furthermore, I understand and agree with church teachings on morality. But could this “guilt factor” be what led to the massive changes in the general attitude of mose catholics after Vatican II ?

It feels like these older writings suggest that it’s okay to have a good meal, just don’t season it to perfection. Or better yet, it’s okay to have intercourse, but keep the pleasure level down. (if your wife is especially attractive it’s wise to turn the lights off…to avoid the sin of lust!) Intercourse exists to bring forth children who are to be future church members.

This seems to be the general tone of the traditional catholic lifestyle. I love the church and I admit that I tend to gravitate toward extremes so I must be careful. How does one find the middle ground? Am I looking at this wrong?

I have some extremely devout catholic aquaintances (daily Mass & several hours of daily prayer) who walk about this life who appear to be continually on the verge of tears. These are wonderful people who seem to be dying before my eyes whenever I see them. What gives?

 

[HappyRevert]

Take comfort, I go to daily mass and am quite happy - because I go to daily mass. I also know devout people who are depressed,but I think it is the flip side of what you are seeing. They are medically depressed, and their faith gets them through. When they need comfort, they concentrate on the lord because nothing else works.

Also, one of my favorite books/audio cd’s is Christopher West’s Naked Without Shame which is about the Theology of the Body. We are meant to experience life’s wondrousness through our bodies (and that includes intercourse). so pleasure is a wonderful thing and a glimpse of heaven.

 

[ConservativeOne]

I’ve been depressed - but not because of my Faith.
I was upset once I learned / read more about the differences / changes after Vatican II - worried about Traditional or Novus Ordo?
But I don’t cry because of the Mass.

Have you seen television lately? Are you old enough to compare it to - say, 20 years ago - if not longer? If you can’t compare the difference, then you don’t fully comprehend…TV is just one example, and I don’t mean to insult you. But if you want to talk about “earthly pleasures” that have insulted God beyond the pale - talk TV or the media or commercials - (not to mention in daily life) - something we watch/hear/accept daily.

There are those who have given their lives to God in the priesthood or sisterhood. They truly have given up alot of earthly pleasures - moreso than those of us in the secular world. They’ve taken final vows to do so. We don’t. And there are those who in their daily secular life give up MUCH MORE than this poor Catholic does. Many don’t even recognize the term “valley of tears” - we say it methodically when praying.

Traditional Catholics aren’t depressed by reason of being traditional. They’re not depressed but perhaps see a bit more than what more democratic Catholics either don’t see or accept as the norm - just because “times change”…Morals and ethics don’t change - nor do Catholic values change to suit another century. The sadness you see in traditional Catholics is, perhaps, that they realize this. We’re stuck in a time when depravity is the norm - and decency is the odd one out.

 

[603304529]

Take comfort, I go to daily mass and am quite happy - because I go to daily mass. I also know devout people who are depressed,but I think it is the flip side of what you are seeing. They are medically depressed, and their faith gets them through. When they need comfort, they concentrate on the lord because nothing else works.

Also, one of my favorite books/audio cd’s is Christopher West’s Naked Without Shame which is about the Theology of the Body. We are meant to experience life’s wondrousness through our bodies (and that includes intercourse). so pleasure is a wonderful thing and a glimpse of heaven.

Christopher West is a sicko - the man is obsessed with sex. And the concept that sex is a glimpse of heaven is absolutely ridiculous. It’s the way Islam looks to heaven. Sick!

 

[603304529]

Christopher West is a sicko - the man is obsessed with sex. And the concept that sex is a glimpse of heaven is absolutely ridiculous. It’s the way Islam looks to heaven. Sick!

To follow up:

“The high point of the Church’s liturgically year is the Easter vigil and perhaps the high point of the Easter vigil next of course to the Eucharist itself is the blessing of the baptismal font and in this ritual the priest takes the Christ candle and plunges the Christ candle into the baptismal font. What is happening here? The baptismal font is the womb of the church from which many children will be born again and the symbolism of that candle that Christ candle being plunged into this baptismal font is Christ the bridegroom impregnating virginally, mystically of course, impregnating the church the bride from which these children will be born again.” Christopher West - obsessed with sex.

“An entryway if you will, into the deepest mysteries of God’s love for his bride the church and how we actually enter into that. How we come to see the sexual embrace the deep intimate erotic love of husband and wife as a passage way into deep transforming intimate union with God, and this is not only for married people.” Christopher West - obsessed with seeing sex in everything.

The man is making a living out of his obsession!

catholicspotlight.com/122/transcript-of-cs67-christopher-west-heavens-song/

 

[TLM08]

Christopher West is a sicko - the man is obsessed with sex. And the concept that sex is a glimpse of heaven is absolutely ridiculous. It’s the way Islam looks to heaven. Sick!

Larry Flynt and Hugh Heffner are sickos. I have no idea about the state of Christopher West’s mind. One thing I do know is that I love God very much and as wonderful as Heaven must be, this is NOT something I wish to be thinking about while on the brink of sexual climax.

 

[TLM08]

To follow up:

“The high point of the Church’s liturgically year is the Easter vigil and perhaps the high point of the Easter vigil next of course to the Eucharist itself is the blessing of the baptismal font and in this ritual the priest takes the Christ candle and plunges the Christ candle into the baptismal font. What is happening here? The baptismal font is the womb of the church from which many children will be born again and the symbolism of that candle that Christ candle being plunged into this baptismal font is Christ the bridegroom impregnating virginally, mystically of course, impregnating the church the bride from which these children will be born again.” Christopher West - obsessed with sex.

“An entryway if you will, into the deepest mysteries of God’s love for his bride the church and how we actually enter into that. How we come to see the sexual embrace the deep intimate erotic love of husband and wife as a passage way into deep transforming intimate union with God, and this is not only for married people.” Christopher West - obsessed with seeing sex in everything.

The man is making a living out of his obsession!

catholicspotlight.com/122/transcript-of-cs67-christopher-west-heavens-song/

Thank You for posting this! I once heard West speaking of eroticism in “holy” terms. It truly did sound like a bad joke. Isn’t this guy the one who wrote a book called “Holy Sex”?

Sex was God’s idea, but I always like to think that the Lord would prefer to close the bedroom door and allow his creatures to enjoy each others embrace in private.

“How we come to see the sexual embrace the deep intimate erotic love of husband and wife as a passage way into deep transforming intimate union with God……” Christopher West

Unfortunately, I grew up with Playboy magazine in my lap and I know that it was wrong… But this stuff sounds almost creepy!

 

[TLM08]

The whole sex thing is a small aspect of my original point of Traditional Catholic attitudes toward pleasure, guilt and the possibility that the fear of pleasure can trigger depression. I am interested in what others have to say about this.

 

[603304529]

Like I said mate, he’s a sicko…

This needs to be brought to people’s attention. So many think he’s the bees knees, cause he call himself Catholic - so he must be right.

 

[michael_quinlan]

I believe the older prayers and hymns were trying to draw the great difference between heaven and earth. When we are constantly watching the news, looking in the mirror, or going to the doctor, our situation is usually deterioration to some extent. How far removed from death is life with God.

However, I am not depressed by death and debilitation. I can appreciate the lovely rose. I understand its fading blush and becoming humus for new roses. It doesn’t scare me.

Look at the old hymns and prayers again. They are beautiful and poetic. Remember people in those days had an even more grueling existence then we do today.

 

[Cluny]

“Traditional Catholic literature” is actually a much broader genre than some people think.

If a given type of spiritual literature is not helpful, or confusing, or even worse, depressing–then don’t read it!

There’s a certain spiritual classic written by a saint of the Church, venerated in both East and West, that I never read because a certain passage in it just makes me mad and upset. (And no, I’m not going to tell you what it is, so don’t ask.)

 

[michael_quinlan]

“Traditional Catholic literature” is actually a much broader genre than some people think.

If a given type of spiritual literature is not helpful, or confusing, or even worse, depressing–then don’t read it!

There’s a certain spiritual classic written by a saint of the Church, venerated in both East and West, that I never read because a certain passage in it just makes me mad and upset. (And no, I’m not going to tell you what it is, so don’t ask.)

aw, please tell us. Sometimes a poetic gruesome metaphor has deep beautiful meaning, that not only you would benefit from, but many others would as well.

 

[RyanML]

The whole sex thing is a small aspect of my original point of Traditional Catholic attitudes toward pleasure, guilt and the possibility that the fear of pleasure can trigger depression. I am interested in what others have to say about this.

I think many traditionalists tend to be very, very scrupulous and such spiritual “walking on egg shells” will certainly lead to anxiety and depression. I know, i’ve been there. I love the Traditional Mass and the emphasis on the contemplative life in much of traditional spirituality, but it seems like the mind set of so many rad-trads is to make this valley of tears as tearful as possible and that, to my mind, is not living life in the Risen Lord Jesus.

 

[603304529]

I think many traditionalists tend to be very, very scrupulous and such spiritual “walking on egg shells” will certainly lead to anxiety and depression. I know, i’ve been there. I love the Traditional Mass and the emphasis on the contemplative life in much of traditional spirituality, but it seems like the mind set of so many rad-trads is to make this valley of tears as tearful as possible and that, to my mind, is not living life in the Risen Lord Jesus.

I think many modern Catholic tend to have very very very little emphasis on sin, and the consequences of sin, and spend lots of time talking about luurve, and place little emphasis on the 4 last things: Death, Judgement, Heaven and Hell.

Yes, Hell does still exist. Despite the efforts since the 60’s to snuff it out.

 

[michael_quinlan]

I think many traditionalists tend to be very, very scrupulous and such spiritual “walking on egg shells” will certainly lead to anxiety and depression. I know, i’ve been there. I love the Traditional Mass and the emphasis on the contemplative life in much of traditional spirituality, but it seems like the mind set of so many rad-trads is to make this valley of tears as tearful as possible and that, to my mind, is not living life in the Risen Lord Jesus.

I personally can disconnect myself from Traditional Catholic thinking that might find fault with enjoying life on earth. Guilt has its place if another person is severely injured by my pleasure. But if they are not injured then, I don’t feel guilty. Depression can be a medical condition or go back to one’s childhood. Counseling can address issues of childhood guilt. Enjoy life, absolutely! Just remember to love your neighbor and remember it will all end one day.

 

[theistgal]

The whole sex thing is a small aspect of my original point of Traditional Catholic attitudes toward pleasure, guilt and the possibility that the fear of pleasure can trigger depression. I am interested in what others have to say about this.

I understand exactly what you’re talking about, and agree with you that sometimes some of those older writings can be depressing.

It also may be that the writings are OK, but you happen to be feeling depressed, and they are just hitting you in the wrong way at the wrong time.

If that happens, by all means, stop reading what you’re reading, and find something that works better for you! AFAIK, God doesn’t require us to be down in the dumps all the time (St. Teresa of Avila: “God deliver us from sullen saints!” ).

Chesterton is always good for a chuckle. Or do what I did last month, when both the weather and the news turned gloomy: (re)read Lewis’ Narnia Chronicles.

 

[603304529]

I personally can disconnect myself from Traditional Catholic thinking that might find fault with enjoying life on earth. Guilt has its place if another person is severely injured by my pleasure. But if they are not injured then, I don’t feel guilty. Depression can be a medical condition or go back to one’s childhood. Counseling can address issues of childhood guilt. Enjoy life, absolutely! Just remember to love your neighbor and remember it will all end one day.

Mate, I’m not picking on you specifically, but be careful with saying that guilt only has a place if another person in injured by your pleasuer.

Using that, extramarital sex isn’t wrong, gay sex isn’t wrong, missing Mass on Sundays isn’t wrong, taking the Lord’s name in vain isn’t wrong, lusting after another man’s wife isn’t wrong, etc etc etc…

No worries if that isn’t what you meant…

 

[RyanML]

I think many modern Catholic tend to have very very very little emphasis on sin, and the consequences of sin, and spend lots of time talking about luurve, and place little emphasis on the 4 last things: Death, Judgement, Heaven and Hell.

Yes, Hell does still exist. Despite the efforts since the 60’s to snuff it out.

Yes, Hell does exist. And love, joy, and peace are all fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22). I believe it was St. Teresa of Avila who prayed “God save us from sour-faced saints!”. She also said that “a sad nun, was a bad nun” and that “I am more afraid of one unhappy sister than a legion of evil spirits!”. Yes we must always be aware of sin, but if we focus on it and obsess over it, then we will miss out on the awesome and unfathomable love and mercy of our Heavenly Father. God bless!

 

[Genesis315]

It’s one thing to weep for your sins, but one thing the Saints all knew how to do was suffer joyously for God. The Catholic faith should give comfort in times of suffering, as our faith allows us to see the love of God in it–it’s teh antidote to depression and despair. Penances and self-denial of worldly pleasure should be done for love of God, which itself brings joy and contentment. If you’re walking around with a sour face all the time because of your penances, you’re not doing anything traditional, but violating the law of Christ when it comes to fasting, etc.

 

[brownjt]

The whole sex thing is a small aspect of my original point of Traditional Catholic attitudes toward pleasure, guilt and the possibility that the fear of pleasure can trigger depression. I am interested in what others have to say about this.

I am a long time baptised protestant who attends may different denominational services. I am also attending RCIA and really enjoy the deep and mystical parts of the catholic faith and the catechism - which has a very optimistic tone.

I am very atttacted to the catholic faith. Some emphasize the suffering of the Lord Jesus Christ rather than rejoice in what He fulffiled and left for us. Maybe some do not realize that the Holy Spirit was not only left for the chruch and the apostolic succesors but also for each one of us.

Yes, there are alot of protestants out there that personally and spiritually have accepted the Holy Spirit in their own lives and are very happy.

The catholic masses are not as celebratory as the protestant services are - though I respect why. Joel Osteen seems to get the ire of many catholics on this site - maybe because he is too optimistc?