Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depession?

[Volodymyr_988]

To follow up:

“The high point of the Church’s liturgically year is the Easter vigil and perhaps the high point of the Easter vigil next of course to the Eucharist itself is the blessing of the baptismal font and in this ritual the priest takes the Christ candle and plunges the Christ candle into the baptismal font. What is happening here? The baptismal font is the womb of the church from which many children will be born again and the symbolism of that candle that Christ candle being plunged into this baptismal font is Christ the bridegroom impregnating virginally, mystically of course, impregnating the church the bride from which these children will be born again.” Christopher West - obsessed with sex.

“An entryway if you will, into the deepest mysteries of God’s love for his bride the church and how we actually enter into that. How we come to see the sexual embrace the deep intimate erotic love of husband and wife as a passage way into deep transforming intimate union with God, and this is not only for married people.” Christopher West - obsessed with seeing sex in everything.

The man is making a living out of his obsession!

catholicspotlight.com/122/transcript-of-cs67-christopher-west-heavens-song/

"Therefore, behold I will allure her, and will lead her into the wilderness: and I will speak to her heart. And I will give her vinedressers out of the same place, and the valley of Achor for an opening of hope: and she shall sing there according to the days of her youth, and according to the days of her coming up out of the land of Egypt.

And it shall be in that day, saith the Lord, That she shall call me: My husband, and she shall call me no more Baali."

The word translated as allure can also mean to woo or seduce.

I’m not sure I can even post the selections from the Canticle of Canticles that I want to use to prove my point. God’s relationship with man is constantly being compared with the sexual union between husband and wife.

This thing:



Is in the Church because it is supposed to look like this:

http://www.sangimignano.com/anticadimora/baldacchino.JPG

The book Ancient Coptic Churches of Egypt mentions that Old St. Peter’s in Rome had curtains hanging from the Baldacchino as do the Coptic Churches of today.

 

[Auntie_M]

Hello, just would like to put my two cents worth in. As an x-protestant, I can remember all those fire and brimstone sermons and leaving them scared out of my wits. Just as in olden days when the father would “take you out behind the barn and give you a good lashing”. The two are very similar. They both give you a bad taste of what a “Good” father would be like.

Our Heavenly Father is the Perfect father. He wants only to love us and give us all he has and wants us to love him with all we have. He is not waiting in the background for us to mess up just so He can send us to hell. Think about it.

You, as a father or mother want to give your child the very best of everything and all your love. A Parent knows we will mess up but they still love us. But to go around telling us how bad we are all the time, putting us down all the time would get anyone depressed. And rightly so.

Jesus talked Love with very little reference to hell at all. Love is Not being AFRAID of someone, but the willingness to show what real love is about.

I have honestly heard all the fire and brimstone sermons I care to hear. I know the devil is bad, I know hell is bad, …

What I want is to hear and feel love in a sermon, just as Jesus himself taught.

 

[ericka1701]

For me, it seemed to be a “cure” for my depression and manic episodes (I have been bipolar since 14 years old). Reading the so called sour-faced Saints’ instructions on self-control and denying oneself of all worldly pleasures has helped me reign in my own crazy impulses quite a bit. I try really hard to not go to the other extreme (for the most part, but I can see the potential for me being very scrupulous if I’m not careful) of complete stoicism and denying myself and focusing only on my own sinful nature. I see it as a balancing act, and know when and how to act at the appropriate times (Ecc. 3). As for those who do find it might trigger depression or anxiety in themselves could be focusing too much on the sinful nature of themselves and completely miss out on God’s mercy. As I have heard before “God loves you just the way you are, but God loves you too much to let you stay the way you are.” Focusing only on God’s mercy and grace is too extreme as well, because that does open the door for many occasions and near occasions of sin and one can become very immune to that.

God Bless!
Ericka

 

[CradleCath]

I’ve been doing a lot of traditional catholic reading lately

and I’ve noticed a common thread of these more traditional writings is the notion that we are to despise this life here on earth and give up all earthly pleasures here in order to attain eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Even in the beautiful prayer “Hail Holy Queen” this life is referred to as a “Valley of Tears”.

I understand and agree with the concept of doing penance and making sacrifices. Popular culture does indeed promote way too much pleasure greed and sinfulness. Furthermore, I understand and agree with church teachings on morality. But could this “guilt factor” be what led to the massive changes in the general attitude of mose catholics after Vatican II ?

I’d first have to know what in the world you’ve been reading that makes you believe that the Church wants us to be unhappy. I’ve am a Cradle Catholic, born in 1941. Yes, we fasted. We don’t believe that any suffering must be wasted, as it can always be offered to God to bring what He needs from it. But, seek out unhappiness…never. I spent 20+ years in the pre-Vatican II Church & I don’t suffer from your “guilt factor”. Again, let us know what you’ve been reading.

 

[CradleCath]

Christopher West is a sicko - the man is obsessed with sex. And the concept that sex is a glimpse of heaven is absolutely ridiculous. It’s the way Islam looks to heaven. Sick!

I had never read anything by Christopher West, nor heard him speak. However, your reaction to his name caused me to look up one of his articles. He says:

"Well, not only the Church, but the entire world has a vested interest in what happens in our bedrooms. What happens there (or wherever else men and women are coupling) actually determines the world in which we live. When sex is oriented towards lasting love and life, it builds marriages that last and families that foster life. In turn, those families become the basic building blocks of a civilization of love and a culture of life.

The opposite is also true. When sex is oriented against lasting love and against life, the end result is that love doesn’t last, families collapse, and human life erodes at its very foundation. The end result can only be a culture of death. Paul VI saw it coming. That in itself should cause us to want to give the oft maligned teaching of Humanae Vitae a closer look."

theologyofthebody.com/09-14-07.asp

You say he’s “obsessed” with sex, a “sick” man. Please explain. Our sexual organs are gifts from God, as is intercourse within the boundary of marriage. What has Christopher West said that has upset you so??

 

[Monica4316]

I think the Saints saw suffering differently than many people do because they could rejoice in their suffering, they offered it to God and He used it for their sanctification… which is something that we can all do when I read these books, afterwards I always want to live entirely for God even if that means sacrifice of some sort…and dying to self and to the world… and I think that’s sort of the effect they were meant to have. But that’s something that God has to prepare us for… if we forget about God’s love and that the world doesn’t compare to it - we’ll probably get depressed reading such books… but I think if we remember this, they’re easier to understand.
Our minds need to be renewed…I know about myself so many thoughts that I have are so worldly.

 

[Detales]

I am reminded of such quotes as “Guilt is such a lovely gift; it never stops giving.” ~Irma Bombeck. Or–“What’s the difference between Catholic guilt and Jewish guilt? They’re born with it, but we do a damned good job of taking it on.” Or I can even go to the scene in an episode of “3rd Rock” where Harry speculates “What if guilt and sex were connected?”…After a brief moment of total disbelief, they all almost fall off the roof laughing at such an absurdity. Well, for them, lol! And Vlodomyr, that is a very instructive pictorial association!

Like so many questions that are posed, much of the usefullness of such a one as TLMO8’s depends to a degree on its framing. That means that there may be hidden assumptions or attributions in the way a presentation is constructed, or framed. It is the very thing that such disciplines as General Semantics and such deal with. It is also the thing one runs in to when trying to get an idea from one language to another.

One would be hard pressed to correctly attribute agency or causality to a body of writing. Therefore it might be more useful to ask “What in my reading matter am I reacting to with depression?” This puts the responsibility where we don’t like it, on ourselves, in this case in the matter of interpretation.

Now in many traditional Catholic writings there are implications that are subtle and are not completely in line with actuality due to their imperfect nature. If these are taken to heart as truth the depression would be due to a misalignment. We won’t here go in to the astonishing difficulties of accurate translations, nor in to the staggering things that people put forth as “true,” whatever faith they purport to be.

I completely respect and support that you, Erika, are succesfully using whatever teachings to stablize yourself. And Michael Q’s admonitions make good sense, as well. Yet we are all different in what needs to be adjusted toward perfection. Some useful questions might be:
“Is goodness necessarily the same thing as piety or dogmatic compliance?” (remember St Theresa’s happy nun!)
“Are these sad sacks (the ones you mentioned as “dying before my eyes,…”) attractive to the feelings that are associated with generosity, inclusiveness, wonder at Creation, the kind of communion with friends that bears useful fruit, community in general, or joy to the world?”
“Does my interpretation make me feel more at one with God or more at odds with God?.” (There are extraordinarily wonderful perceptions of God and Jesus that you don’t even see on here, or commonly in our literature. Maybe you are one who has a higher calling in your way and are depressed because what you have read just doesn’t completely fit.)

Anyway, the wonders that constitute your being are far greater than what can be put on paper anywhere. If you are amazed at the miracle of your self, and see that miracle as others, you will live both the positive and negative forms of the Golden Rule and find that those who say that God is Love have not decieved you.

 

[brownjt]

Everyone - just pick up your New Testament and start to read and read and read. Especially the four gospels.

Yes, Jesus message and his sense of urgency gets harder and more pronounced as he gets close to Jerusalem and realizes he will have to fulfill hi father’ will. I think his sense of frustration is more pronouinced with his disciples and others - as we can see in John 6 as he makes his pronouncement regarding the flesh and the blood etc.

He loves us in the beginning and in the end like we loved our children when they were babies - no matter how old they get. BUT as I get older as well, my sense of frustration grows when I think my children may not get saved or follow the Lord.

But all we can do is Love them like Jesus loves us. If we accept Him and follow him then we will join Him.

 

[eelpis]

No, sin, heresy and distance from God does,

 

[eelpis]

I had never read anything by Christopher West, nor heard him speak. However, your reaction to his name caused me to look up one of his articles. He says:

theologyofthebody.com/09-14-07.asp

You say he’s “obsessed” with sex, a “sick” man. Please explain. Our sexual organs are gifts from God, as is intercourse within the boundary of marriage. What has Christopher West said that has upset you so??

He making to much of it, why would he exalt an orgasm over contemplation for example? It seems a bit unhealthy and exaggerated.

 

[WH1988]

Perhaps a little experience of mine might help you understanding why some more traditional catholics might be sometimes not very optimistic.

In my country (Portugal) the TLM isn’t offered anywhere, so I have to content myself with the NO, which is okay, although I can only attend NO in latin when I go to Lisbon (the only place where you have a NO latin mass).

I am considering priesthood, and my spiritual director (Opus Dei) has advised me to talk to a friend of him, who is a seminarian at the most decent Portuguese seminary.

When I told him about my TLM preference, and started making some points about the ICRSS seminary (in Florence, Italy), he just called me a schismatic (?!), and basically kept talking for ten minutes about how wrong it is to create divisions inside the church.

I confess I couldn’t even pronounce a single word. I mean, I knew this guy was ‘conservative’.

After I was able to simply say something, thank him for his time and go away, I entered the nearest church, I kneeled and started crying for over one hour, crying like a baby, asking the Lord how could he allow so many men of His Church behave so badly, asking how could the Church reach this point where it’s members are so lost.

Perhaps more traditional-minded Catholics are not so optimistical because non-traditionals are frequently not very kind too, and usually what my experience has thought me is that those who present themselves as the champions of “tolerance” are usually very intolerant people.

Perhaps more traditional minded Catholics just want some place where they can feel they are understood, because what they (we) defend is quite acceptable, and I think we don’t deserve the treatment we have sometimes.

Happy Christmas for all!

 

[scylla]

Here is a quote from a Catholic that might help.

The Catholic Sun

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!

Hilaire Belloc

Now we should enjoy life, many things are given to us to savor and enjoy. To not enjoy them also is good as this is a spiritual practice which you would read about. Since the denial of our pleasure is beneficial to our spiritual health you would see this recommended in writings. This does not mean that good things are wrong to enjoy it just means that it is good to do penance, and seek ways to progress in our love of God.

Everything takes a proper balance and a good disposition toward life. You can certainly enjoy life and use prudence in not over-indulging in what God has given us. We can be gluttons of many things yet that doesn’t make what God gives as bad, just overindulgence is wrong.

Live life for Christ and live for your salvation and everyone around you, as you only have one lifetime to give it all for God.

In Christ
Scylla

I am a Traditional Catholic who seems to enjoy the Catholic faith more than any liberal out there, they are never happy since they are in constant rebellion of God. You find happiness in submitting to God

 

[graceandglory]

Christopher West is a sicko - the man is obsessed with sex. And the concept that sex is a glimpse of heaven is absolutely ridiculous. It’s the way Islam looks to heaven. Sick!

The world is obsessed with sex. Christopher West is obsessed with holiness and chastity in marriage and in singleness.

If Islam looks at sex that way, perhaps they got it from the New Testament which came before they did. Islam is monotheistic–they got that part right, I’m sure there are pieces of truth mixed in with their false religion.

Sex as a “glimpse of heaven” is not ridiculous, look at the scriptures,
1 Corinthians and the Book of Revelation to start with, The Song of Songs perhaps.

 5 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 6

22
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
23
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
26
to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
27
that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28
So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29
For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30
because we are members of his body.
31
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
33

Why would someone be “obsessed with sex” if what they want is to love their wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her,
and also wanted to see people, especially us repressed Catholics redeemed in this area?

(Sorry, I’ve met him, and he’s not a sicko. Saintly, holy, pure in heart, and evangelical, but not sicko.)

"To the pure, all things are pure."

"BUT…
to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
1 Titus 1:15

If sex is dirty and someone is obsessed with it, then perhaps they would be a sicko.
But, if sex were intended to be holy from the beginning, and you were obsessed with it, you wouldn’t be a sicko but holy.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”
Matthew 5:8

 

[CradleCath]

Perhaps a little experience of mine might help you understanding why some more traditional catholics might be sometimes not very optimistic.

In my country (Portugal) the TLM isn’t offered anywhere, so I have to content myself with the NO, which is okay, although I can only attend NO in latin when I go to Lisbon (the only place where you have a NO latin mass).

I am considering priesthood, and my spiritual director (Opus Dei) has advised me to talk to a friend of him, who is a seminarian at the most decent Portuguese seminary.

When I told him about my TLM preference, and started making some points about the ICRSS seminary (in Florence, Italy), he just called me a schismatic (?!), and basically kept talking for ten minutes about how wrong it is to create divisions inside the church.

I confess I couldn’t even pronounce a single word. I mean, I knew this guy was ‘conservative’.

After I was able to simply say something, thank him for his time and go away, I entered the nearest church, I kneeled and started crying for over one hour, crying like a baby, asking the Lord how could he allow so many men of His Church behave so badly, asking how could the Church reach this point where it’s members are so lost.

Perhaps more traditional-minded Catholics are not so optimistical because non-traditionals are frequently not very kind too, and usually what my experience has thought me is that those who present themselves as the champions of “tolerance” are usually very intolerant people.

Perhaps more traditional minded Catholics just want some place where they can feel they are understood, because what they (we) defend is quite acceptable, and I think we don’t deserve the treatment we have sometimes.

Happy Christmas for all!

Don’t give up!! My own eyes filled with tears TWICE at Mass today. Tears of Joy they were this time, though I’d shed tears at Mass before…at Novus Ordo Masses that featurered the kids running trucks up & down the pews, the laity distributing the Eucharist as if they were giving you a portion of the meatloaf they’d be serving for dinner & the readings being given by some kid in jeans & T-shirt.

Most of my family were with my husband & myself today…it was my daughters first time to attend anything but the Novus Ordo (& from the day she went away to college, 27 years ago…until the day a career promotion brought her back “home”…5 yrs. ago)…it was an abuse ridden N.O. full of liturgical “dancers”, power-point presentations & often times a full fledged band, with drummer, etc. at Mass.

At one time, I looked over at her today & saw the wonder in her eyes. My husband knelt beside me reading the words he’d said as a server 55 yrs. ago…his face totally at peace, our children & Grandchildren dressed in their Christmas best. I cannot tell you how full my heart was. My prayers, though, were pretty pathetic. All I could say as I knelt at the Communion rail…was Thank You, God…Thank You, Thank You, THANK YOU.

I waited 40 years for this morning & it was worth the wait. The Pope isn’t going to let this go. It will happen for you, too. And you’re right the liberal Catholics who are so “tolerant” of abortion & homosexual acts, etc., etc. are not a bit tolerant of us & our beliefs. Pray for them as they have sure got things backwards.

 

[I_Believe]

Great answers above to a good question

…
I have some **extremely devout catholic aquaintances **(daily Mass & several hours of daily prayer) who walk about this life who appear to be continually on the verge of tears. These are wonderful people who seem to be dying before my eyes whenever I see them. What gives?

My 2 cents…
Short answer, … you answered the question already. Extremely devout Catholics see a very filthy world around them. They themselves see something dying. The Faith.

They see me as I was for 35 years. And see it in others.

The lukewarm and the pious are of two distinct mindsets. Catholicism is demanding. Those teachings on mortification and detachment from worldly things are rock solid. But one must understand the message. There is no conflict of these teachings in simply buying a new car because of the need for dependable transportation. But buying a 55 Chevy Nomad and spending every Saturday and Sunday of an entire summer restoring it, just to show it off at the local car show, might be a bit much. You are then taking pride in a worldy thing.
jmho

 

[m134e5]

I do not think traditional Catholicism necessarily triggers depression, but I think some elements of it can attract people with various personality disorders.

 

[Ceil-1]

I would have to agree with the above post. I fell in love the the Tridentine Mass, but, so many Tridentine enthusiasts are on the verge of fanaticism.

If a person wishes to have a balanced view, they are considered one of “those” who are ruining the Church. Anyone who isn’t completely in agreement with their, sometimes over the top view, is a liberal and treated with disdain. Just read the over reaction of the poster regarding Christopher West. You would think Mr. West is some sort of child molestor, or something.

There are so many like that, and it infects people who innocently explore the Traditional community (they don’t mix with the rest of us ). It creeps on them slowly, because of the continuous campaign against anything N.O. It is an obsession and unbalanced because it results in gross lack of charity. It encourages spiritual pride, which leads to a sort of blindness. These are not the people standing outside the abortuaries, or serving at SVDP or food pantries, either. I’ve looked for them.

I had to laugh at the priest who juggles both types of Masses at his parish. He quipped that if Jesus came tomorrow, He would have to decide which Mass to attend. Therein lies the dilemma for many of us. Do we stay at our NO and put up with the lack of reverence, or go over to the Tridentine and eventually become a raving fanatic. I have considered moving over to the Byzantine to avoid all the baggage. I’m sorry but that is the reality, and it is not pleasant.

 

[KingAlfred]

“…we are to despise this life here on earth…”

That’s quite a stretch. No…Christ came to save the world, not to condemn it. Therefore, in our imitation of Christ, we seek to do the same. It’s simply a matter of priority. God is our priority. Therefore, our temporal ambitions and pleasures must take a distant second-place. I’m sure you’ve encountered the need to dismiss the rewards of this life yourself. Have you ever pinned all your hopes on someone or some human system, only to see those hopes dashed, because there was nothing substantive there to begin with? I sure have.

 

[TLM08]

The world is obsessed with sex. Christopher West is obsessed with holiness and chastity in marriage and in singleness.
…

If sex is dirty and someone is obsessed with it, then perhaps they would be a sicko.
But, if sex were intended to be holy from the beginning, and you were obsessed with it, you wouldn’t be a sicko but holy.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”
Matthew 5:8

God invented sex to be shared within marriage. On that we all probably agree. But isn’t sex supposed to be exciting? The word “Holy” is like a bucket of cold water on the intense physical aspects of the sexual experience. In other words, there are certain pleasures attached to sex that are “unavoidable”. Just try not to enjoy them!

God forbid we should take pleasure in the sight of our wives as they step out of the shower, or undress for the evening. Certainly I am not alone on this.

 

[CradleCath]

=Ceil-1;4593005]I would have to agree with the above post. I fell in love the the Tridentine Mass, but, so many Tridentine enthusiasts are on the verge of fanaticism.

This is just like saying that those who attend the Novus Ordo Mass, laity who distribute the Eucharist & priests who stroll up and down the aisle to shake hands are pro-abortion, pro gay “marriage”, etc., etc. & “on the verge of schism”.

If a person wishes to have a balanced view, they are considered one of “those” who are ruining the Church. Anyone who isn’t completely in agreement with their, sometimes over the top view, is a liberal and treated with disdain. Just read the over reaction of the poster regarding Christopher West. You would think Mr. West is some sort of child molestor, or something.

Yet I, a traditional Catholic, said that I saw nothing wrong in that view & nothing contrary to Catholic teachings in the few Christopher West articles that I’ve read. Stereotyping people never really works, now does it?

There are so many like that, and it infects people who innocently explore the Traditional community (they don’t mix with the rest of us ). It creeps on them slowly, because of the continuous campaign against anything N.O. ** It is an obsession and unbalanced because it results in gross lack of charity**. It encourages spiritual pride, which leads to a sort of blindness. These are not the people standing outside the abortuaries, or serving at SVDP or food pantries, either. I’ve looked for them.

The statement above is the most Judgmental I’ve read in a long, LONG time.

**They **“infect” people.
They continuously campaign against the N.O.
They don’t mix with the rest of us (whomever that is).
**They **are obsessed, unbalbanced, gross lack of charity, spiritual pride, blindness!!
They don’t fight abortion, they don’t serve at food pantries.

I had to laugh at the priest who juggles both types of Masses at his parish. He quipped that if Jesus came tomorrow, He would have to decide which Mass to attend. Therein lies the dilemma for many of us. Do we stay at our NO and put up with the lack of reverence, or go over to the Tridentine and eventually become a raving fanatic. I have considered moving over to the Byzantine to avoid all the baggage. I’m sorry but that is the reality, and it is not pleasant.

The reality that I see is that you have written a post filled with anger & hate. You have sat in judgment over a whole group of people. You are afraid of Tradition & that fear translates itself into
vtriol that will poison your soul. It’s only 2 days since we celebrated the anniversary of the Savior of the world…shame on you.