Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depession?

[Rosa_Centifolia]

God invented sex to be shared within marriage. On that we all probably agree. But isn’t sex supposed to be exciting? The word “Holy” is like a bucket of cold water on the intense physical aspects of the sexual experience. In other words, there are certain pleasures attached to sex that are “unavoidable”. Just try not to enjoy them!

God forbid we should take pleasure in the sight of our wives as they step out of the shower, or undress for the evening. Certainly I am not alone on this.

I always learned that as long as you don’t put sex in your marriage before God, taking pleasure in it is not a sin. It isn’t that you aren’t supposed to enjoy it but realize that it comes from God and keep it in perspective. I don’t find the word “holy” to be a bucket of water at all. Actually, that makes it better.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I have a depression problem, so I’ll admit, I have days when I have to steer clear of some of the more “doom and gloom” traditional-type books…

On the other hand, I’m also Gothic, so since that mentality entails embracing the less pleasant aspects of life, I find being Traditional helps me be a better Goth, and being Gothic helps me do better at being Traditional. I know, sounds wierd, but the Lord He doth work in mysterious ways…

 

[PJM]

I’ve been doing a lot of traditional catholic reading lately and I’ve noticed a common thread of these more traditional writings is the notion that we are to despise this life here on earth and give up all earthly pleasures here in order to attain eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Even in the beautiful prayer “Hail Holy Queen” this life is referred to as a “Valley of Tears”.

I understand and agree with the concept of doing penance and making sacrifices. Popular culture does indeed promote way too much pleasure greed and sinfulness. Furthermore, I understand and agree with church teachings on morality. But could this “guilt factor” be what led to the massive changes in the general attitude of mose catholics after Vatican II ?

It feels like these older writings suggest that it’s okay to have a good meal, just don’t season it to perfection. Or better yet, it’s okay to have intercourse, but keep the pleasure level down. (if your wife is especially attractive it’s wise to turn the lights off…to avoid the sin of lust!) Intercourse exists to bring forth children who are to be future church members.

This seems to be the general tone of the traditional catholic lifestyle. I love the church and I admit that I tend to gravitate toward extremes so I must be careful. How does one find the middle ground? Am I looking at this wrong?

I have some extremely devout catholic aquaintances (daily Mass & several hours of daily prayer) who walk about this life who appear to be continually on the verge of tears. These are wonderful people who seem to be dying before my eyes whenever I see them. What gives?

NO

**Catholism properly understood and practiced **(these are a big if) cannot bring despair, and indeed are the very root and fount of Hope and joy? We have “The Way, The Truth and The Light” and we have the Ressurected and Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Himself Amen!

God bless you, thanks for asking!

PJM m.c.

 

[nahbios]

I do not think traditional Catholicism necessarily triggers depression, but I think some elements of it can attract people with various personality disorders.

I agree with this. I often feel that life is like balancing on a tightrope, though of late I have seen it not so much as keeping a balance in life (directed towards God through His Church), but as keeping upright amid all the perceived rules and regulations of the Church. I know, “rules and regulations” are not what the Church focuses on. At the same time, when I read material that says, for instance, “Jesus feels great sorrow when you do [insert behaviour]”, it makes me feel terrible…that I’m full of sin and even presume God’s forgiveness for venial sins to ‘justify’ - incorrect usage! - doing the wrong thing. (By the way, is that kind of presumption a mortal sin?)

Being a scrupulous person, a life where I am just bound in a Traditional way of life and surroundings at times seems very attractive. Then again, I feel that I would be torn to leave those whom I love who I want to help and give a good example to - not in a prideful way, but out of love…and admittedly, fear. Hmm…maybe I’m not the best role model.

 

[brownjt]

I agree with this. I often feel that life is like balancing on a tightrope, though of late I have seen it not so much as keeping a balance in life (directed towards God through His Church), but as keeping upright amid all the perceived rules and regulations of the Church. I know, “rules and regulations” are not what the Church focuses on. At the same time, when I read material that says, for instance, “Jesus feels great sorrow when you do [insert behaviour]”, it makes me feel terrible…that I’m full of sin and even presume God’s forgiveness for venial sins to ‘justify’ - incorrect usage! - doing the wrong thing. (By the way, is that kind of presumption a mortal sin?)

Being a scrupulous person, a life where I am just bound in a Traditional way of life and surroundings at times seems very attractive. Then again, I feel that I would be torn to leave those whom I love who I want to help and give a good example to - not in a prideful way, but out of love…and admittedly, fear. Hmm…maybe I’m not the best role model.

It seems that some fundamentalist and conservative catholics think that they lterally are required to give everything up and lead the life of a monk for to to be pleasing to God?

The grace and salvation that Jesus gives is for all mankind: the tax collector, the tax payer, the prostitute, the pimp, and the john, so to speak. As the Bible says, the self-righteous never seek the Lord like the healthy never go to a doctor. But the Lord is for everyone.

We all called to do something in Life and Jesus can and wants to be present and active in all those endeavors. Incidentally, salvation and sanctification is an ongoing process - according to the Methodist Church. Wanted to bring this up because some think that protestants believe that “once saved always saved” If they do, ask them about this.

But once you accept Jesus as a protestant or catholic (we are all christians!) then the sanctification process occurs over a long period of time.

We now are the children of Jesus - who loves us but chastises us when we stray. He knows we will never be perfect - so let’s not get wraspped up psycholically when we are not.

His fountian of mercy never runs dry.

 

[Bob1]

I’ve been doing a lot of traditional catholic reading lately and I’ve noticed a common thread of these more traditional writings is the notion that we are to despise this life here on earth and give up all earthly pleasures here in order to attain eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Even in the beautiful prayer “Hail Holy Queen” this life is referred to as a “Valley of Tears”.

I understand and agree with the concept of doing penance and making sacrifices. Popular culture does indeed promote way too much pleasure greed and sinfulness. Furthermore, I understand and agree with church teachings on morality. But could this “guilt factor” be what led to the massive changes in the general attitude of mose catholics after Vatican II ?

It feels like these older writings suggest that it’s okay to have a good meal, just don’t season it to perfection. Or better yet, it’s okay to have intercourse, but keep the pleasure level down. (if your wife is especially attractive it’s wise to turn the lights off…to avoid the sin of lust!) Intercourse exists to bring forth children who are to be future church members.

This seems to be the general tone of the traditional catholic lifestyle. I love the church and I admit that I tend to gravitate toward extremes so I must be careful. How does one find the middle ground? Am I looking at this wrong?

I have some extremely devout catholic aquaintances (daily Mass & several hours of daily prayer) who walk about this life who appear to be continually on the verge of tears. These are wonderful people who seem to be dying before my eyes whenever I see them. What gives?

this one court my eye and I must confess I do not have the time to read all the posts.

However I certainly don’t hate this life, helping others and seeing happiness brought back in to their life is very rewarding, perhaps one would be better of spiritually not getting the reward of seeing their happiness. So if I loose a few points upstairs never mind.

 

[brownjt]

this one court my eye and I must confess I do not have the time to read all the posts.

However I certainly don’t hate this life, helping others and seeing happiness brought back in to their life is very rewarding, perhaps one would be better of spiritually not getting the reward of seeing their happiness. So if I loose a few points upstairs never mind.

How could we lose points when the results of the sacrament of marriage gave us Life her on earth. God wants us to be happy and fruitful and to multiply. God gave us dominion over the earth - he gave us the plants and animals. And he said it was good!

 

[eelpis]

I do not think traditional Catholicism necessarily triggers depression, but I think some elements of it can attract people with various personality disorders.

LOL what an insult. It might be that people with personality disorders are attracted to Opus Dei too.

 

[Tybourne]

As a psychologist I agree that people suffering various forms of mental suffering can be drawn to spiritual practices, devotions and reading that exacerbate their difficulties. For example, one devout and traditionalist young man I knew, who suffered from psychosis, believed that the nuns at our college were agents spying on him from his altar servers’ guild back home. Another young man’s fasting turned into an eating disorder.

The remedy? Psychologically well-informed spiritual direction. For example, if I am of a melancholy temperament and inclined towards depression, I may be drawn to meditate on the Lord’s Passion. I may imagine that the Lord is calling me to pray the sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary every day! Yet, the Enemy could use this great good against me to exacerbate my weakness and keep me shut out of the joys of heaven. Cassian advises those who are overly given to sorrow to meditate on the blessedness of heaven.

The key to discerning spiritual sorrow is this- do I make others joyful or miserable? We know now what great spiritual and mental suffering Mother Teresa lived with. Yet, she made others joyful. This is a sign that her suffering was a true cross, given to her by the Lord, not a false one that she fashioned herself. This is true traditional Catholicism.

 

[lovemysix]

I so agree with the above post by Tybourne…having grown up in a very traditionally Catholic family and feeling like I was very damaged by it, I can speak from some experience. The radicals in my family were very depressed and definitely had personality disorders that led them to extreme traditionalism. The OP’s question is kind of asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. I think it’s a little of both. Once somebody who has mental issues gets into religious exercises and practices that exacerbate those issues, it has a snowball effect, and it’s very difficult to break that vicious cycle. I suffered from terrible scrupulosity and an unhealthy fear of God for years and am pretty sure I would have left the faith altogether if I had not met and fallen in love with a very happy and well-balanced faithful Catholic man.

I want to make it clear that I don’t just think it’s traditional Catholicism that attracts people with personality disorders and depression—I think ANY radical form of religion can attract them. Nor do I think everybody who is extremely traditional has a personality disorder or suffers from depression. But I do think it’s harder to stay balanced in that kind of environment, and if you have a personality that tends toward imbalance, radical religion of any kind can feed into that imbalance.

Lauren

 

[Jane_Eliz]

All this talk of sex and sin: from what I understand, Christopher West’s writings are based on John Paul II’s encyclical “Theology of the Body.” Why don’t we all go back and read the original message, from the source? (Trouble is, I haven’t been able to find a literal translation.)
Does anyone have an online or other resource to clear up this mess, which was evidently the reason for John Paul II’s writing “Theology of the Body” in the first place–to give us the proper perspective on sex, sexuality, the marriage bed–the place of all of these in our secular society, how to view all of this, and how to therefore conduct ourselves in sex and love.
Anyone???

 

[Jane_Eliz]

Hey, whaddaya know–a new search turned up this site for John Paul II’s Theology of the Body (a series of 129 talks, actually, which were translated into English in the newspaper of the Holy See, never mind Christopher West’s interpretation, or anyone else’s):

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb1.htm

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
10 September 1979, page 1
L’Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
The Weekly Edition in English is published for the US by:
The Cathedral Foundation
L’Osservatore Romano English Edition
320 Cathedral St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
Subscriptions: (410) 547-5315
Fax: (410) 332-1069
lormail@catholicreview.org

So we can actually go to a very credible source for answers to our questions re: sex, marriage, men and women, and how religious devotion and sexuality coexist or resemble each other. I doubt it would be possible to criticize John Paul II’s “obsession” with the topic, especially as he is speaking on matters of faith and morals!!!

 

[Cathryn]

As far as traditional writings, Arch-Bishop Fulton Sheen’s book Three To Get Married written in 1951 gives an inspiring guide to Love and Marriage that is very simple to read. As he explains the Sacrament of Marriage, because it is live-giving love and love-giving life, is the image of the Trinity. And yes sex within marriage is a glimpse of heaven, and is there to draw us to heaven. I find the traditional view and Pope John Paul II’s views very compatible.

 

[chrisb]

Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depression?

Only if one is too attached to the things of this world.

I remember a certain wealthy individual who approached Our Lord Jesus Christ and asked him “How can I enter into heaven”? Well, Our Lord told him to sell everything he had and follow him. The wealthy individual left depressed.

We are not a club of celebratory humanism. We are the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

 

[Cathryn]

I’ve been doing a lot of traditional catholic reading lately and I’ve noticed a common thread of these more traditional writings is the notion that we are to despise this life here on earth and give up all earthly pleasures here in order to attain eternal happiness with God in Heaven. Even in the beautiful prayer “Hail Holy Queen” this life is referred to as a “Valley of Tears”.

The beautiful traditional prayer “Hail Holy Queen” referring to this life as a “Valley of Tears” is similar to me as the 23rd Psalm referring to this life as “the Valley of the Shadow of Death”.

 

[Geremia]

Christopher West’s Naked Without Shame

With a title like that, this sounds like a nudist’s book; it cannot be Catholic.

 

[Shin]

Here is a sermon on precisely the subject of Traditionalism and Depression.

sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html

Scroll down to the link entitled ‘Traditionalist Problems’. It might be helpful to tell your traditionalist friends about it if you feel they need the help.

 

[Lujack]

With a title like that, this sounds like a nudist’s book; it cannot be Catholic.

That’s nonsense. You just literally judged a book by its cover, something I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone do before.

 

[Geremia]

As a psychologist I agree that people suffering various forms of mental suffering can be drawn to spiritual practices, devotions and reading that exacerbate their difficulties. For example, one devout and traditionalist young man I knew, who suffered from psychosis, believed that the nuns at our college were agents spying on him from his altar servers’ guild back home. Another young man’s fasting turned into an eating disorder.

Just because you are a psychologist, does that somehow give you more authority in judging a person’s spiritual life?

The remedy? Psychologically well-informed spiritual direction.

Science, including psychology, is subordinate to Catholic dogma. Pope Pius IX, in his Syllabus of Errors, condemns the proposition that

All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object.

The key to discerning spiritual sorrow is this- do I make others joyful or miserable?

The goal of Catholicism is to worship God, not to please others or make ourselves happy, which is the goal of hedonism. True devotion is something that gives a deep internal joy, not something outwardly detectable by science or psychology. From St. Francis de Sales’s Introduction to the Devout Life,

The world, looking on, sees that devout persons fast, watch and pray, endure injury patiently, minister to the sick and poor, restrain their temper, check and subdue their passions, deny themselves in all sensual indulgence, and do many other things which in themselves are hard and difficult. But the world sees nothing of that inward, heartfelt devotion which makes all these actions pleasant and easy. Watch a bee hovering over the mountain thyme;—the juices it gathers are bitter, but the bee turns them all to honey,—and so tells the worldling, that though the devout soul finds bitter herbs along its path of devotion, they are all turned to sweetness and pleasantness as it treads;—and the martyrs have counted fire, sword, and rack but as perfumed flowers by reason of their devotion.

 

[mongobongo]

I do not believe that Traditional Catholicism can trigger depression in the manner that the OP described. However, I do believe that it can contribute to depression in that people who want to worship a certain way are criticized, not part of the main group and often have a deep sense of loss for “what was.” Meanwhile, the NO people (of which I am one…but barely) can do whatever they want - call in the clowns, the teddy bears, the African drummers and nobody says a word. Say the Rosary, wear veil or kneel and you’ll never hear the end of it! So, in that way, yes, I think depression can be triggered.