Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depession?

[brownjt]

I do not believe that Traditional Catholicism can trigger depression in the manner that the OP described. However, I do believe that it can contribute to depression in that people who want to worship a certain way are criticized, not part of the main group and often have a deep sense of loss for “what was.” Meanwhile, the NO people (of which I am one…but barely) can do whatever they want - call in the clowns, the teddy bears, the African drummers and nobody says a word. Say the Rosary, wear veil or kneel and you’ll never hear the end of it! So, in that way, yes, I think depression can be triggered.

I would recommend for those who have never been to go to an african american mega-church, There are a number of them here in the northern virginia area. There is a reason why much of the historical black hyms are called spirituals and inspirationals. Notwithstanding the history of the blacks during slavery, when you go to one of these and you start to see the massive choir sway and gradually singing praises and happy celebrations at that - you have witnesses another form of worshipping and praising our wonderful God. Please partake!

 

[Tybourne]

Just because you are a psychologist, does that somehow give you more authority in judging a person’s spiritual life?

Geremia, I’m not judging anyone’s spiritual life. I am assessing the psychological well-being of the people in the examples I have given.

Science, including psychology, is subordinate to Catholic dogma.

Very true. It’s also true that the human sciences can shed light on a person’s development and on social issues, as witnessed by Pope John Paul II’s use of phenomenology and psychology in his theology of the body.

Thanks for the quotation from St Francis de Sales, it’s good to be reminded of that. My concern is when rather than

the devout soul finds bitter herbs along its path of devotion, they are all turned to sweetness and pleasantness as it treads

well-intentioned souls find themselves turning the true honey of the faith into vinegar that sours their lives and those of others.

As St Thomas says

As regards the last end itself, all agree in desiring the last end, because all desire the fulness of their own well-being, in which full well-being the last end consists. But as regards that in which the character of the last end is found, all men do not agree in their last end. Some seek riches as their complete and final good; others seek pleasure; others other things; just as to every taste deliciousness is pleasant, but to some men most pleasant is the deliciousness of wine, to others the deliciousness of honey, and so of the rest. Nevertheless, that must absolutely be most pleasant, with which he is best pleased who has the best taste; and in like manner that good must be most complete, which is pursued as his last end by him whose affections are best in order.

oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1965&chapter=123926&layout=html&Itemid=27

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

To follow up:

“The high point of the Church’s liturgically year is the Easter vigil and perhaps the high point of the Easter vigil next of course to the Eucharist itself is the blessing of the baptismal font and in this ritual the priest takes the Christ candle and plunges the Christ candle into the baptismal font. What is happening here? The baptismal font is the womb of the church from which many children will be born again and the symbolism of that candle that Christ candle being plunged into this baptismal font is Christ the bridegroom impregnating virginally, mystically of course, impregnating the church the bride from which these children will be born again.” Christopher West - obsessed with sex.

“An entryway if you will, into the deepest mysteries of God’s love for his bride the church and how we actually enter into that. How we come to see the sexual embrace the deep intimate erotic love of husband and wife as a passage way into deep transforming intimate union with God, and this is not only for married people.” Christopher West - obsessed with seeing sex in everything.

The man is making a living out of his obsession!

catholicspotlight.com/122/transcript-of-cs67-christopher-west-heavens-song/

The Sarum rite went further than the Roman rite, instructing the celebrating to drip three drops of wax from the candle into the font, thus impregnating it (you can guess what the wax symbolized, yes?). That one isn’t Christopher West, it’s medieval English Catholicism, and that was inheriting an older tradition. Any early liturgy course that covers that part of the Easter vigil will make mention of that symbolism. You may not like it, but it’s not just West who has noticed the connection - the connection was intentional.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Hi,

I used a Q-tip this morning and it kinda felt good - should I go to confession?

 

[nmoerbeek]

Hi,

I used a Q-tip this morning and it kinda felt good - should I go to confession?

Depends, what part of the body did you use the Q-tip on? Or are you being scrupulous?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Depends, what part of the body did you use the Q-tip on? Or are you being scrupulous?

Now that was just naughty of you.

I apologize for my attempted funny. Felt the need to lighten the mood.

 

[brownjt]

The “doctor” says go to a mega-church and watch as the choir begin to hum, sawy, and sing praises to God. Celebrate the blessing which you have and let your soul absorb the effects of 3000 people singing for God. Not for salvation but for a lift. Your problems are the same, but the feeling of joy is electric. Try that once a month. Continue to attend mass and partake in the Eucharist. Yes, it is a protestant church buuuut, the catholic church I will be attending in northern virginia ahs music music and more music, including a gospel choir twice a month.

 

[weepixie71]

well i have been a traditional catholic for a 15yrs. i think i have to tell you that all of religion is a cup 1/2 empty or a cup 1/2 full. all that Christ suffered!!! but then oh how great his love is for us. “valley of tears” instead of thinking of it as how miserable life is here on earth. i like to think of how hard life is and its challenges that i get to offer up to God while He and His mother are holding my hand the whole way. and then because of my suffering I have faith that God will let me go to someplace so wonderful and beautiful here on earth we can begin to conceive it. as far as lusting after your wife, i never heard of such a thing as turning off the lights. lusting after anyone other than your wife is wrong. God made us in a way that things trigger our brain so we would have the desire to make love and procreate and make new souls for Christ. I think the key word is moderation. as long as you are making Christ your first love and desire you should have no fears.
all religions have sacrifice. all religions have hardships.

 

[brownjt]

well i have been a traditional catholic for a 15yrs. i think i have to tell you that all of religion is a cup 1/2 empty or a cup 1/2 full. all that Christ suffered!!! but then oh how great his love is for us. “valley of tears” instead of thinking of it as how miserable life is here on earth. i like to think of how hard life is and its challenges that i get to offer up to God while He and His mother are holding my hand the whole way. and then because of my suffering I have faith that God will let me go to someplace so wonderful and beautiful here on earth we can begin to conceive it. as far as lusting after your wife, i never heard of such a thing as turning off the lights. lusting after anyone other than your wife is wrong. God made us in a way that things trigger our brain so we would have the desire to make love and procreate and make new souls for Christ. I think the key word is moderation. as long as you are making Christ your first love and desire you should have no fears.
all religions have sacrifice. all religions have hardships.

Of course, these churches and these people are just like u and in fact their community is going through very hard times. They are very devout in the face of their real suffering - especially some of these in district of columbia. But their service - at least the music is very inspirational. Unless, your priest said not to go, it would be another way to keep christ’s suffering in perspective.

 

[Geremia]

Geremia, I’m not judging anyone’s spiritual life. I am assessing the psychological well-being of the people in the examples I have given.

Psychology could say that St. Catherine of Siena had anorexia, but would that imply she was misguided in her spiritual life? I suppose because this thread talks about depression, psychology is meaningful, but how does it matter to one’s spirit what kind of psychological disorder one has?

Thanks for the quotation from St Francis de Sales, it’s good to be reminded of that. My concern is when rather than well-intentioned souls find themselves turning the true honey of the faith into vinegar that sours their lives and those of others.

How does one know when this happens?

 

[Tybourne]

Psychology could say that St. Catherine of Siena had anorexia, but would that imply she was misguided in her spiritual life? …how does it matter to one’s spirit what kind of psychological disorder one has?

Well, as the priest who received me into full communion with the Church said, of Julian of Norwich, “When one reaches that kind of level it’s okay to throw away the rule book”. The rule in question is that the glory of God is this: the human person fully alive (St Ireneaus of Lyon). In the case of the Lady Julian, she broke this rule, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by praying to be ill!

I’m not certain about St Catherine, but typically such mystics carry out their ascetic practices only under the guidance of a spiritual director. St Teresa of Avila is very insistent on the value of this practice.

In the case of some saints, however, He allows them to remain in suffering, whether mental or physical to allow His holiness to illuminate their weakness, as in the case of St Benedict Joseph Labre. At the Resurrection, however, will St Benedict Joseph Labre still be mentally ill? St Thomas would say not.

As to the question of whether one is souring or mellowing through suffering, here we are reliant on the opinions of our fellow Christians! First we must make peace with our brother, before we make our offering at the altar of Calvary.

 

[Geremia]

Thanks for the responses

I am not sure what you mean by:

First we must make peace with our brother, before we make our offering at the altar of Calvary.

Thanks

 

[justinkolo]

Can Traditional Catholicism trigger depression?

Only if one is too attached to the things of this world.

I remember a certain wealthy individual who approached Our Lord Jesus Christ and asked him “How can I enter into heaven”? Well, Our Lord told him to sell everything he had and follow him. The wealthy individual left depressed.

We are not a club of celebratory humanism. We are the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

yep, that’s me.

More specifically I guess I should enjoy filet mignon and lima beans equally? I got a long way to go

 

[Lainey63]

I didn’t read all the posts it seems like we get off the original question…but anyway I have also read many old catholic books and I understand exactly what you are talking about. It seems that these saintly people loathed & despised themselves thinking that they are practicing humility and self-loathing is not humility at all. I believe that in today’s society that there is such and attack on life, and the family we really need to practice gratitude to God & increase our trust in God & it is much harder to live for God than it is to die for Him.

 

[nsper7]

I haven’t read all the posts, but, and no offense is intended, could it be that some people who suffer from neurotic and depressive disorders are attracted to “Traditional Catholicism”?

As one who is borderline OCD/Scrupulous, I have to admit there is a definite attraction to TCism. After all, obsess about the rules, go to Confession a lot (I would probably go every day or every other day if my Priest allowed it), receive the Eucharist a lot (which I plan to do if I was Confirmed and finished with RCIA). It all seems very ordered and objective, emotionalism and happy-sappy talk unnecessary. Just follow the rules to every jot and tittle and you’ll be fine.

Being intellectually minded, TCism (no insult intended, just trying to shorten the words) seems very intellectual. After all, Latin, deep studying the Church Fathers and Doctors, etc. and all the history you could possibly want.

And, I also see how this could deepen my issues. It almost takes the whole need for a “personal relationship with God” out of the picture. Just keep going to Confession and to Mass and studying.

 

[Geremia]

As one who is borderline OCD/Scrupulous, I have to admit there is a definite attraction to TCism. After all, obsess about the rules, go to Confession a lot (I would probably go every day or every other day if my Priest allowed it), receive the Eucharist a lot (which I plan to do if I was Confirmed and finished with RCIA). It all seems very ordered and objective, emotionalism and happy-sappy talk unnecessary. Just follow the rules to every jot and tittle and you’ll be fine.

Matthew 5:18:

For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

Being intellectually minded, TCism (no insult intended, just trying to shorten the words) seems very intellectual. After all, Latin, deep studying the Church Fathers and Doctors, etc. and all the history you could possibly want.

God gave us humans an intellect. This is what makes us truly human. Why waste the privilege?

And, I also see how this could deepen my issues. It almost takes the whole need for a “personal relationship with God” out of the picture. Just keep going to Confession and to Mass and studying.

This is part of the “personal relationship with God!” Traditional masses, for example, stress the personal relationship with God over how a community relates to Him because, in the end, our personal relationship with Him is what matters most.

 

[eelpis]

Matthew 5:18:God gave us humans an intellect. This is what makes us truly human. Why waste the privilege?This is part of the “personal relationship with God!” Traditional masses, for example, stress the personal relationship with God over how a community relates to Him because, in the end, our personal relationship with Him is what matters most.

How do you meet God?

It’s primarily through the sacraments. Frequent confession and communion are good things. Without them you cannot have a living relationship with the Saviour.

 

[Appleby]

I find that Traditional Catholicism is the opposite of depressing; it is one thing to hold onto in a world that changes minute by minute. Those things you find “depressing” are actually signs of another D-word that has become terrifying to the modern generation: DISCIPLINE. Traditional Catholicism has a great deal of discipline involved in it, and in a world where “anything goes” it is an island of sanity to me. This is also why I love the Latin Mass; it is quiet, measured and disciplined, with a shape and form to it, and everywhere you hear it, regardless if you are the only Anglo in the cathedral, you can understand it.

As for “Traditional Catholic Literature” I recommend C.S. Lewis. He’s clear, insightful, and easy to read and not at all depressing. Start with “Mere Christianity.”

 

[Joe_5859]

As a psychologist I agree that people suffering various forms of mental suffering can be drawn to spiritual practices, devotions and reading that exacerbate their difficulties. For example, one devout and traditionalist young man I knew, who suffered from psychosis, believed that the nuns at our college were agents spying on him from his altar servers’ guild back home. Another young man’s fasting turned into an eating disorder.

The remedy? Psychologically well-informed spiritual direction. For example, if I am of a melancholy temperament and inclined towards depression, I may be drawn to meditate on the Lord’s Passion. I may imagine that the Lord is calling me to pray the sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary every day! Yet, the Enemy could use this great good against me to exacerbate my weakness and keep me shut out of the joys of heaven. Cassian advises those who are overly given to sorrow to meditate on the blessedness of heaven.

The key to discerning spiritual sorrow is this- do I make others joyful or miserable? We know now what great spiritual and mental suffering Mother Teresa lived with. Yet, she made others joyful. This is a sign that her suffering was a true cross, given to her by the Lord, not a false one that she fashioned herself. This is true traditional Catholicism.

This is a great post. It is something I think we would all do well to keep in mind. I think there are far too many Catholic optimists neglecting the Lord’s Passion and far too many Catholic pessimists neglecting the Resurrection. A good spiritual director is essential.

 

[Rleng616]

Wow! That’s quite a question.

I am clinically depressed.

The Church, her history and her teachings brought me back from “the brink” .

There are as many forms of depression as there are strains of the common cold.

(IMHO) The depressed people that you speak of may have been depressed whether they belonged to a particular religion or not.

However, there are definitely triggers for many types of depression.

My one word answer to your question is NO - Traditional Catholicism, strictly defined, cannot trigger depession.

Bob