Can Traditions/traditions change?

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I know of Traditions (like the canon of scripture,) that can’t change. But recently I’ve heard people use the Church’ position on freedom of religion and slavery pre-Vatican ll to support their ideas about the church changing her teachings… also the same thing with these deaconesses in the early church. Some help would be much appreciated.
 
Some people think Vatican II changed a lot of traditions, but it really didn’t change anything. There were some disciplines that were loosened and such, but the Tradition (with the capital T) was not, will not, and can not be changed (not by men).
 
I totally agree. But what are the traditions with a capital T? can you name the Traditions?
 
I totally agree. But what are the traditions with a capital T? can you name the Traditions?
the Trinity
the Holy Orders
the Eucharist
the Confessional
and the Rest (of the sacraments) are here on Guiligan’s island! 😛

the Assumption of Mary
the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

the Supremacy of the Papacy

Basically everything of the faith hinted at in scripture, but not spelled out 🙂
 
This is something I’m reading at the moment, it’s written by a theologian named Richard Gaillardetz:

“In the decades prior to Vatican ll many theologians began to challenge the dominant understanding of tradition at the time. They recognized that the schematization of Scripture and tradition as two different sources was foreign to the Christian heritage of the first thousand years. Indeed, they insisted that while the late mediaeval and baroque theologians would speak of “traditions” in the plural, there was a more ancient insight reflected in the use of “tradition” in the singular as a way of naming the whole of the Christian faith passed on from generation to generation. Individual customs and traditions served as a concrete and particular expressions of the one great tradition. They also contended that it was unfaithful to the witness of the early Church to imagine that only the pope and bishops had responsibility for handing on the apostolic faith.”
  • Do you find this twisted? I don’t think he is the most faithful Catholic.
 
This is something I’m reading at the moment, it’s written by a theologian named Richard Gaillardetz:

“In the decades prior to Vatican ll many theologians began to challenge the dominant understanding of tradition at the time. They recognized that the schematization of Scripture and tradition as two different sources was foreign to the Christian heritage of the first thousand years. Indeed, they insisted that while the late mediaeval and baroque theologians would speak of “traditions” in the plural, there was a more ancient insight reflected in the use of “tradition” in the singular as a way of naming the whole of the Christian faith passed on from generation to generation. Individual customs and traditions served as a concrete and particular expressions of the one great tradition. They also contended that it was unfaithful to the witness of the early Church to imagine that only the pope and bishops had responsibility for handing on the apostolic faith.”
  • Do you find this twisted? I don’t think he is the most faithful Catholic.
No, I don’t find it twisted in the least. The faith is safeguarded by the Holy Spirit which protects the Church, but it is also passed on at the individual level. The faith isn’t only the teachings of the Church, but the collective lived experience of our Christian ancestors over the past 2000 years.

We attempt to live a Christian life, and this Christian life influences others, since this is all happening in the real world of history, not some imaginary or intellectual place in our minds. Our faith changes the world, and this changed world changes us, over and over, back and forth.

Our faith is grounded in both the teachings of the Church and the holy scriptures, and to separate them is to believe each can survive on their own. Yet scripture alone leads to the many errors of Protestantism, while tradition without scripture has never existed - again pointing to their interconnection.

I don’t know any other teachings of this theologian, so maybe he’s absolutely bonkers, but this sounds fine. To what part do you object?
 
I know of Traditions (like the canon of scripture,) that can’t change. But recently I’ve heard people use the Church’ position on freedom of religion and slavery pre-Vatican ll to support their ideas about the church changing her teachings… also the same thing with these deaconesses in the early church. Some help would be much appreciated.
There are doctrines that are known as ‘de fide,’ which are necessary for belief if one is Catholic. The theologian Ludwig Ott attempted to compile a list of them, but his list is disputed. The issue isn’t as simple as looking it up in the catechism or some Vatican reference book.

This is how I think of it(and I may be absolutely wrong, so don’t take this as absolute): if a Church Council solemnly proclaims a teaching, such as the Trinity or the dual natures of Christ, then that is de fide. If a doctrine or practice has existed continually since the apostolic era then it is essentially de fide. Other doctrines slowly develop in the Church’s mind, over centuries, and sometimes become more accepted, sometimes less. If the doctrine becomes (near)universally accepted, and stays that way for some time, then it is again essentially de fide. If that universally accepted belief is declared ex cathedra by the Pope, then it actually becomes de fide.

For example, the immaculate conception is a belief that has existed since Christian antiquity, but it was understood in different ways, and accepted by some and rejected by others, back and forth and off and on for many centuries. Gradually the doctrine developed a solid form, and that form was agreed upon by consensus, and that consensus was declared by the Pope ex cathedra.

The male priesthood has existed continually since the apostolic era with no serious objection, and really goes back to the Jewish temple. I don’t know if this has ever been formally declared at a council, but it can be considered essentially de fide. It might not have the formal stamp on it, but it could get it tomorrow if needed.

Things like the Church’s position on religious freedom, however, are not a part of the faith, per se, but a statement of the Church’s opinion on a worldly issue as guided by their current understanding. These can change, and have. The controversy arises over whether or not these changes are justified in light of the broader tradition, and that’s a healthy debate to have over any change of opinion in the Church.

Instead of thinking of the Church as a fixed set of rules, it’s more accurate to think of it as a dialogue between Christians as guided by the Holy Spirit. Some things are revealed, and those become fixed. Everything else is given a degree of importance based on many factors.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is look at how Christians have believed over time and in different places, and see what things are held in common. I believe there is a shared, fundamental core that unites us throughout history, and across cultural and national borders, and this core is the unchanging essence of our Catholic faith.
 
No, I don’t find it twisted in the least. The faith is safeguarded by the Holy Spirit which protects the Church, but it is also passed on at the individual level. The faith isn’t only the teachings of the Church, but the collective lived experience of our Christian ancestors over the past 2000 years.

We attempt to live a Christian life, and this Christian life influences others, since this is all happening in the real world of history, not some imaginary or intellectual place in our minds. Our faith changes the world, and this changed world changes us, over and over, back and forth.

Our faith is grounded in both the teachings of the Church and the holy scriptures, and to separate them is to believe each can survive on their own. Yet scripture alone leads to the many errors of Protestantism, while tradition without scripture has never existed - again pointing to their interconnection.

I don’t know any other teachings of this theologian, so maybe he’s absolutely bonkers, but this sounds fine. To what part do you object?
I agree with this, except one phrase: “tradition without scripture has never existed.” Depending on your perspective, this statement could be true or false. The only truth for it that I see is if you mean that the New Testament Tradition had the Old Testament Scripture to make use of. If that is what you mean, you would be correct to say that. But, the traditions of the OT and NT, respectively, both began their existence without any written scriptures of their own.

RunningDude basically answered for me in regards to what I meant by Tradition (with a capital T) - thanks, dude. Most of the Tradition *is *“hinted at” in the Bible, yes, but not all of it. For instance, the Didache (older than Paul’s letters) qualifies three acceptable means for baptizing, suggests saying the Our Father three times per day, and other such things. The Tradition (in my words) is what the apostles were teaching their converts, including the Gospel, the mass, and the sacraments (and sacramentals), and how they were to live, basically. It is clear that the Old Testament Tradition was not ignored, for much of Paul’s Epistles are spent in reconciling the two, especially the question of circumcision, because he was teaching the Gentiles. The other apostles (mostly) were committed to converting the Jews still, so they wouldn’t have had to teach them as much in regards to the OT. The Epistles were written with the intention of correcting problems that arose in the early churches for lack of a clear doctrine and the lack of communication that technology allows us today. Paul (and others) would preach the Gospel, establish a church community, ordain the priests and deacons (elders and presbyters), and move on to the next place to do the same. After he left, issues would arise, questions would be asked, messengers would be sent to Paul, and Paul would respond. Of course, that’s not the cause for *all *his letters, but most of them. The point I’m trying to make is that the entirety of the Tradition is not contained in the canonized collection of books called the Bible. The Tradition is the truth of the Church and the way of the Church, passed down from the apostles.

And, again, no, that does not change.
 
In the first millenia of Christianity, did Christians conceive of tradition as something completely separate or the same as scripture?
 
In the first millenia of Christianity, did Christians conceive of tradition as something completely separate or the same as scripture?
They are (and were considered in the 1st millenia) two different things, tho they do tie together. The sacred sriptures are simply the writings that came from the Tradition that were canonized for liturgical reasons, mostly, and defined as the inspired, innerant word of God.
 
I totally agree. But what are the traditions with a capital T? can you name the Traditions?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses these concepts. A few relevant paragraphs are as follows:
CCC 81
“Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.” “And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
CCC 83
The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Code:
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical, or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's magisterium.
More info can be found here: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.shtml#art2

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