Can we baptise those born dead?

[asteroid]

I was in a church at the weekend and picked up a little booklet about Our Lady of Guadaloupe. Interesting reading. Stapled in the back of the book was the following, which I’m really not sure about. Are we really meant to baptise the unborn dead?

Quote:

Our Lady has asked seers to encourage the practice of the following prayer … baptism of the unborn

After sprinkling with holy water

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator …

All of you, who were born dead, and are still to be born dead, by day and at night, all of you, who were killed, so that all of you will be given eternal life by Our Lord Jesus Christ, I baptise - (give the name…) - in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit!

Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary, Glory be to the Father.

End Quote.

I know I’m not an expert on Marian apparitions (though I bought a book last weekend to read/study) or the theology of baptism (I’m only just getting used to it being salvific not just symbolic) but I’m really not sure about baptising a still born, or aborted baby. Would that really be necessary for the salvation of someone who obviously hasn’t sinned? Is baptism even possible after someone has died? Does this relate in any way to 1Cor15? I am assuming that if you can baptise a dead infant that doesn’t mean in any way you can baptise a dead adult, or that baptism on behalf of a dead ancestor would be possible.

In confusion,

Asteroid

 

[RSiscoe]

I have a few comments: It is believed that the soul sometimes remains with the body for a few minutes after the person appears to be dead. It is thought that the soul does not leave the body for about 20 minutes (although this is only speculation). Based on that, I have heard of baptizing a baby that was born dead, when it was believed that death occurred during labor. The hope is that, although the baby appears dead, the soul may not have left the body. In that way, it would be appropriate - according to Catholic theology - to attempt to baptize a baby born dead.

Regarding saying a prayer for those born dead, or aborted. This would not be an actualy baptism - since water must actually touch the person being baptized -, but rather a petition to the mery of God to grant the grace of baptism - the grace that is communicated in baptism - to those who were unable to receive the sacrament.

In my opinion, there is no problem with doing this. Although it is not a true form of baptism, it is a prayer to God for those who are helpless. Who knows, possibly God will act outside of the normal means and sanctify their souls in response to the prayer. We can always hope in God’s mercy - there is nothing wrong with that.

But we do need to realize that this is not the normal way to receive sanctifying grace; it is rather a petition to God to act outside of the general order - to perform a miracle - to help those who are unable to receive baptism. I personally think only good will come from that practice.

You also asked if baptism would be necessary for salvation for a person who has not sinned. Yes, it is necessary since we are “born in sin” due to original sin. Everyone must be “born again” even those who have never committed an actual sin.

If a person who has never committed an actual sin (baby, retarted person, etc.) were to die without baptism, they would go to “limbo”, which is a state of natural happiness (paradise), but not heaven. That is why we even baptise children.

You may want to do a search on what the Church fathers taught about baptizing infants, as part of your studies.

God Bless,

 

[Deacon_Ed]

RSiscoe:

I have a few comments: It is believed that the soul sometimes remains with the body for a few minutes after the person appears to be dead. It is thought that the soul does not leave the body for about 20 minutes (although this is only speculation). Based on that, I have heard of baptizing a baby that was born dead, when it was believed that death occurred during labor. The hope is that, although the baby appears dead, the soul may not have left the body. In that way, it would be appropriate - according to Catholic theology - to attempt to baptize a baby born dead.

Yes, under those circumstances, baptism would be done conditionally (“If you are still alive, I baptize you…”).

If a person who has never committed an actual sin (baby, retarted person, etc.) were to die without baptism, they would go to “limbo”, which is a state of natural happiness (paradise), but not heaven. That is why we even baptise children.

Limbo is not, and never was, a part of the official body of Catholic teaching. The Catechism says that we “depend on the mercy of God.” But you are correct that we baptize babies in an effort to point them on the path of salvation.

Deacon Ed

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I seem to remember that under the same rational, the Last Rites/Absolution was granted to President Kennedy by the attending priest. He was supposed to have told Mrs. Kennedy that he felt certain the President’s soul had not yet left his body.

 

[puzzleannie]

You have failed to provide something vital, the citation for the book you read, whether or not its contents have Church approval.

 

[asteroid]

Thanks for your responses - much food for thought. As always.

And thanks too puzzleannie for that question. The booklet itself isn’t the issue here - the main article is taken froma magazine called ONE which is (or was?) for Catholic students and youth in the UK. It had an additional page which I was unsure of - exhorting people to visit abortion clinics in order to talk people out of abortion. A good idea to aim to save the lives of the innocent, but that action needs lots of prayer and even more wisdom and compassion.

The prayer and “baptism” was on another sheet stapled to the booklet and I do not know where it comes from. I couldn’t find it anywhere on line though there is a copyright at the bottom and I found the name attached to that on one web page connected to someone else. (Whether the two are connected really is something I don’t know). That someone else is a woman from London who has been claiming regular apparitions for 20 years - apparitions which, for all sorts of reasons, are rejected by the Church.

Maybe I should write to the church I got this from and ask them about it.

Blessings

Asteroid

 

[RSiscoe]

Deacon Ed:

Limbo is not, and never was, a part of the official body of Catholic teaching. The Catechism says that we “depend on the mercy of God.” But you are correct that we baptize babies in an effort to point them on the path of salvation.Deacon Ed

Although limbo has not been defined “de fide”, it has been “officially” taught by the Church, and thus forms part of the ordinary magesterium. As faithful Catholics, we must believe all of the teachings of the Church, not just the defined dogma’s

Baltimore Catechism: “Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven” (Question # 632).

"The Limbo of Children. It is of faith that all, children and adults, who leave this world without the Baptism of water, blood or desire and therefore in original sin are excluded from the Vision of God in Heaven. The great majority of theologians teach that such children and unbaptized adults free from grievous actual sin, enjoy eternally a state of perfect natural happiness, knowing and loving God by use of their natural powers. This place and state is commonly called Limbo. (Donald Attwater, A Catholic Dictionary, The Macmillan Company:New York (1942), p. 309; w/Nihil Obstat and Imprimitur

**Baltimore Catechism: **

86. Q. Did Christ’s soul descend into the hell of the damned?

A. The hell into which Christ’s soul descended was not the hell of the damned, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him.

87. Q. Why did Christ descend into Limbo?

A. Christ descended into Limbo to preach to the souls who were in prison-that is, to announce to them the joyful tidings of their redemption.

88. Q. Where was Christ’s body while His soul was in Limbo?

A. While Christ’s soul was in Limbo His body was in the Holy Sepulchre.

Penny Catechism of Pius X:

63. What do you mean by the words, ‘he descended into hell’?

By the words ‘he descended into hell’ I mean that, as soon as Christ was dead, his blessed Soul went down into that part of hell called Limbo.

64. What do you mean by Limbo?

By Limbo I mean a place of rest, where the souls of the just who died before Christ were detained.

65. Why were the souls of the just detained in Limbo?

The souls of the just were detained in Limbo because they could not go up to the kingdom of heaven till Christ had opened it for them.

Fr. John Hardin: [T]he Church also teaches through two ecumenical councils, that even those who die with only original sin on their souls cannot reach the beatific vision. There is also the condemnation of the Jansenists, as teaching something “false, rash, and injurious to Cathollic education,” who claimed it was a Pelagian fable to hold that there is a place “which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children,” for the souls of those who depart this life with the sole guilt of original sin. St. Thomas taught that limbo is a place of perfect happiness, but minus the supernatural vision of God tow which, of course, no creature has a natural right. (John A. Hardon, The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday:Garden City (1975), p. 510; w/Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat and Imprimitur)

 

[Deacon_Ed]

A small correction: the Limbo of the Father’s is, indeed, a part of the corpus that we call the Deposit of Faith. It is where those who would have been saved waited until the death and resurrection of Jesus opened the gates of heaven. That is de fide.

Limbo for children is what’s called a theolgumenon – a theological speculation. It is a perfectly logical deduction from what has been revealed, but it itself is not revealed. It is, therefore, not a part of the offical body of teachings (the Deposit of Faith). Because it was so logical, it was carried forward in a number of different documents of the Church and acquired a sort of common-law validity. Note that the Baltimore Catechism properly refered to this as “common belief” – not as authentic teaching of the Church.

According to the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *which presents the teachings of the Church, it is no longer a part of our teaching. This is what it says:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[philosoph0123]

Part of also may be going on here is a confusion about the nature of Hell. The typical view is a place of torment, both of the body and of the soul. And it is the case that many people in Hell do in fact suffer this sort of torment, because of actual (as opposed to original) sin (not denying the objectivity of original sin, but its intentionality). On the other hand, some theologians in the patristic and medieval eras held that some people (and especially children who died before baptism) went to Hell, but that for these Hell was neither a place of physical nor spiritual torment…a kind of happiness was even possible there (although not the full happiness of the blessed in the presence of God). And this would correspond, I think, to what many people call Limbo.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

asteroid:

I was in a church at the weekend and picked up a little booklet about Our Lady of Guadaloupe. Interesting reading. Stapled in the back of the book was the following, which I’m really not sure about. Are we really meant to baptise the unborn dead?

Quote:

Our Lady has asked seers to encourage the practice of the following prayer … baptism of the unborn

After sprinkling with holy water

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator …

All of you, who were born dead, and are still to be born dead, by day and at night, all of you, who were killed, so that all of you will be given eternal life by Our Lord Jesus Christ, I baptise - (give the name…) - in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit!

Lord’s Prayer, Hail Mary, Glory be to the Father.

End Quote.

Throw it away. It opposes the teaching and discipline of the Church.