Can we be intellectually honest and believe in the freedom of man?

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That evidence is that we all seem to make choices every day.
You know, as self-evident as that may appear, and even though you left the word “free” out of it, I’m not even going to agree to that much.

Water doesn’t make a choice to flow downhill, and it doesn’t even “seem” as though it does. Likewise it doesn’t necessarily seem as though people make a choice either. It’s only if we infer free will to them that it seems as though they’re making choices. If we don’t infer free will then they’re behaving in the same manner as the water does.
Why would we select that as the best conclusion without evidence of any sort?
I don’t think that there is a best conclusion. So my objection isn’t with what you choose to believe, it’s with your conclusion that that belief is somehow superior to someone else’s.
 
Likewise it doesn’t necessarily seem as though people make a choice either. It’s only if we infer free will to them that it seems as though they’re making choices. If we don’t infer free will then they’re behaving in the same manner as the water does.
This is wrong. Everytime I make a choice it certainly seems as though I am doing so. Even if I observe certain behavior in others, the same thing seems to be happening. Lets not say seem, lets say it “appears” to be happening. With ourselves, you may say that is a feeling, but it is more than that. If I decide to get up and go get a glass of milk out of the refrigerator, that is more than just a feeling that I made that choice.
 
This is wrong. Everytime I make a choice it certainly seems as though I am doing so. Even if I observe certain behavior in others, the same thing seems to be happening. Lets not say seem, lets say it “appears” to be happening. With ourselves, you may say that is a feeling, but it is more than that. If I decide to get up and go get a glass of milk out of the refrigerator, that is more than just a feeling that I made that choice.
I hate to run off in the middle of a thought provoking discussion, but I gotta go. I’ll be back.
 
Everytime I make a choice it certainly seems as though I am doing so. Even if I observe certain behavior in others, the same thing seems to be happening. Lets not say seem, lets say it “appears” to be happening. With ourselves, you may say that is a feeling, but it is more than that. If I decide to get up and go get a glass of milk out of the refrigerator, that is more than just a feeling that I made that choice.
I’m back, and I’ve had some time to think about the differences in how you and I approach the problem of free will. You understandably believe that free will is self-evident, and yet I’m not convinced that it even exists. So I’ve tried to come up with a scenario in which you might be able to understand my position. This scenario isn’t meant to trick you, or present you with an unrealistic situation. It’s just meant to illustrate the problem that I see in assuming that free will is self-evident.

Let’s assume that in the not-too-distant future we have self-driving cars. Now these self-driving cars are in no way conscious, or self-aware. They’re just fairly run-of-the-mill AI’s. Perhaps a bit more sophisticated than what we have today, but still just basically silicon. Now since it would likely be impossible to program the AI as to how it should react in every possible situation, we instead allow the AI to learn. We put people in driving simulators, and let the AI observe how those people react in thousands upon thousands of simulated real world situations. We let the AI learn whether to swerve to avoid an object in it’s path depending upon whether it’s a ball, or a dog, or a child. We let it learn that some things are more important to avoid than other things. And we let it learn how to react when it’s a choice between the lesser of two evils. We allow it to learn how to make value judgments. But it’s still just silicon. It can “choose” to swerve to avoid a child, even though it means striking a dog. It can “choose” to rear end the car in front of it, rather than swerve into the cyclist beside it.

But is our AI really “choosing” to do these things? Or does it just “seem” to be choosing to do them, when in fact it’s not actually “choosing” to do anything. It’s just doing what a lot of sophisticated software has programmed it to do? And what if our AI actually was conscious, would it think that it was choosing to do them? Would it feel as though it was choosing to do them?

That’s the question. When that AI makes a choice, or when you make a choice, is it really a matter of free will, or just a lot of very sophisticated “programming” masquerading as free will?

Now you seem to think that we can tell the difference, but I’m not so sure that we can. I’m not sure that fundamentally your “choices” are all that much different than the AI’s “choices”.
 
Freddy: Pick a card. Any card.
Endtimes picks a card.
Endtimes: Free will exists! QED!

We can all go home now. Who knew we could solve one of life’s most compelling mysteries so quickly.
Constant resorting to Mockery speaks Volumes about the Mocker. .
 
40.png
Freddy:
Freddy: Pick a card. Any card.
Endtimes picks a card.
Endtimes: Free will exists! QED!

We can all go home now. Who knew we could solve one of life’s most compelling mysteries so quickly.
Constant resorting to Mockery speaks Volumes about the Mocker. .
Sounds like a Marvel character. Mild mannered Freddy gets bitten by a radiocative Mocking bird and develops super powers. Maybe I should buy a cape.
 
Sounds like a Marvel character. Mild mannered Freddy gets bitten by a radiocative Mocking bird and develops super powers. Maybe I should buy a cape.
Mockers Mock when lacking an argument…
 
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Mockers Mock when lacking an argument…
Okay, the intellectual repartee is beginning to slip a little bit, if you people aren’t going to educate us, at least entertain us. Let’s see if we can’t elevate the witty banter juuuuussttt a little bit.

Where’s Bradskii when you need him?
 
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40.png
EndTimes:
Mockers Mock when lacking an argument…
Okay, the intellectual repartee is beginning to slip a little bit, if you people aren’t going to educate us, at least entertain us. Let’s see if we can’t elevate the witty banter juuuuussttt a little bit.

Where’s Bradskii when you need him?
I’ll ask him when I see him.
 
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