Can we choose our beliefs?

[CatholicSoxFan]

I’ve heard this argument quite a bit recently. Basically, a lot of people say that we can’t really choose our beliefs. It’s usually supported by the person challenging everybody to believe in absurd thing X for a certain amount of money. You can say you believe it, but as the argument goes, you can’t choose to actually believe something.

Now if this argument goes through, it has some implications on the justice of Hell, because if heresy is a mortal sin like (I think) the Catholic doctrine is, then God sends people to Hell for a belief that the person couldn’t choose to not have.

What is your response to this?

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about whether free will in general can be coherently defined, so please do not turn this thread into a discussion on said topic.

 

[davidv]

I’ve heard this argument quite a bit recently. Basically, a lot of people say that we can’t really choose our beliefs. It’s usually supported by the person challenging everybody to believe in absurd thing X for a certain amount of money. You can say you believe it, but as the argument goes, you can’t choose to actually believe something.

Now if this argument goes through, it has some implications on the justice of Hell, because if heresy is a mortal sin like (I think) the Catholic doctrine is, then God sends people to Hell for a belief that the person couldn’t choose to not have.

What is your response to this?

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about whether free will in general can be coherently defined, so please do not turn this thread into a discussion on said topic.

If beliefs cannot be chosen, why are there conversions from one set to another.

 

[jimmy]

It depends how you define belief. Not everything is equal in a persons mind. Some things are more rational and logical to me; others seem to be completely absurd. I can choose to accept them, but there is going to be difference in the way I believe in them.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You have said a lot of things here, but I am failing to see your clear question through all the muddles of thought you just spewed out.

 

[empther]

One cannot adopt beliefs in two ways:

1. we have a disposition, tendency, attitude or whatever you want to call it to adopt some beliefs. So somebody with negative attitudes or whatever will adopt evil beliefs. Somebody “looking for God” will become a firm believer.
2. somebody’s belief system may not be strong enough, or securely based on reasoning or resolve.
   Thus, the danger of “going native”. I’m reading Joseph Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness” again. Kurtz was an ivory hunter in the heart of the Belgian Congo. His real purpose was to being civilization to the primitive natives in the center of Africa. He ended up becoming as bad a savage as any of them and left a note in a book that read “exterminate all the brutes” before dying himself. The story doesn’t explain exactly why Kurtz changed, but obviously his original beliefs were not strongly enought based on anything and could not survive the savage reality all around him. ( the Marlon Brando movie “Apocalyse Now” was loosely based on “Heart of Darkness”.)
   Conrad was apparently not a believer in God. Wikipedia: " In a 1913 letter to acquaintances who had invited Conrad to join their society, he reiterated his belief that it was impossible to understand the essence of either reality or life: both science and art penetrate no further than the outer shapes." So he probably thought nobody could have beliefs strong enough to survive an ordeal like that of Kurtz. But religious people with strongly based convictions have survived horrific experiences without change.

 

[Aloysium]

A relationship with God requires more than belief; it is a matter of faith, and includes action.
Faith is a virtue involving knowledge and understanding.
These are gifts of the Holy Spirit, along with: wisdom, counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord.
They are freely given to us and they reinforce each other. Together they all help us grow in faith.
We can reject them; but, if we accept, they will be given to us in abundance.

 

[TK421]

Beliefs can be locked into place because of A) pride, and B) dependency. As we, in degrees, free ourselves of these two things, we are better disposed to believe what is true, rather than to believe what we feel like.

This is why it can be impossible to convince a pothead that marijuana is bad for them. It’s like firing lead bullets into a steel skull. Nothing gets through. There’s a psychological (and spiritual) barrier in place.

We choose what we believe, but it’s not something that occurs spontaneously, like moving the position of our arms or flipping a switch up or down. It is sculpted over time.

 

[MPat]

I’ve heard this argument quite a bit recently. Basically, a lot of people say that we can’t really choose our beliefs. It’s usually supported by the person challenging everybody to believe in absurd thing X for a certain amount of money. You can say you believe it, but as the argument goes, you can’t choose to actually believe something.

One might as well “prove” that people can’t lift anything by challenging someone to lift a truck. Just because some things are too hard to believe doesn’t mean that it is impossible to choose any beliefs. For example, it is not that hard to believe that NP=P or that NP<>P (there is no conclusive proof one way or another at the moment).

 

[SecretGarden]

Beliefs are chosen and formed through various methods.

1. 
   *]Conversion often numerous events over a life span
   *]Reading church doctrine, the Bible, or other church doctrines and allowing the spirit to touch the person’s spirit
   *]Life experiences either in church, with family or other life events
   *]By listening to the holy spirit
   *]Obedience to God
   *]Humility, compassion
   *]Time.
   *]Partly through the religious traditions we have grown up into and later decide to adopt into one’s lives
   
   The list is endless but it begins with a person deciding whether or not they will accept Jesus as their personal saviour and if they grew up in the faith, deciding if they will adopt it or not. This often happens through sometype of conversion, or decision to explore what Christianity has to offer.

 

[Bahman]

I’ve heard this argument quite a bit recently. Basically, a lot of people say that we can’t really choose our beliefs. It’s usually supported by the person challenging everybody to believe in absurd thing X for a certain amount of money. You can say you believe it, but as the argument goes, you can’t choose to actually believe something.

Now if this argument goes through, it has some implications on the justice of Hell, because if heresy is a mortal sin like (I think) the Catholic doctrine is, then God sends people to Hell for a belief that the person couldn’t choose to not have.

What is your response to this?

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not about whether free will in general can be coherently defined, so please do not turn this thread into a discussion on said topic.

Let me give you another extreme example. Suppose that God punishes those who have love and mercy toward each other. Are you willing to accept such a God which is not pleasing to you?

 

[Jerbear]

I think people can choose their beliefs to an extent but not always. Growing up I was raised in an extremely devout Catholic home. I drifted away from the Church, recognized it and did my best to come back. I began to have severe doubts, joined a Christian discussion group, talked to priests, went to mass regularly and fully engulfed myself in the faith to rejoin. No matter how hard I tried on multiple attempts, after 4 years of being unable to accept it as my beliefs I left the Church. As much as I would love to tell people that I’m still Catholic and I believe what the Bible says, I just can’t do it no matter how much I’d like to.

There are some people who can choose to believe. I have a friend who moved here from India a little over a year ago and currently now wants to get baptized into Christianity.

I believe there is a huge influence from other people. If you grow up in an extremely loving household or don’t have problems growing up and the people around you are happy and Christians then it is likely that you will be a stronger Christian as well and to accept it as being your beliefs. I believe this applies to my friend as well. He has said so many times how he loves it in America and all of his friends here are devout Christians and they hang out all the time. It was only a matter of time before he began to go to their discussion groups and want to join the faith as well.

 

[NekoNecro]

I don’t think you can really choose your beliefs. Think about it, what if I came to you today and told you the one true God was really Re-Atum, who pulls the sun across the sky every day and gave you life.

You’d laugh me out the door right?

Now lets put this in reverse, what if you were an Athiest and I came and told you a man walked on water and you had to believe me even if there was no proof.

I know if I hadn’t been born into a Christian household I would be very, very, very unlikely to believe. It would be an outrageous claim with no evidence.

God did not give people reason just to never employ it. Hence you can’t really help your beliefs. There are some people who do change sides so to speak, but they are the minority.

Lets not forget that Religion is not just a matter of faith, but also a cultural thing too. To be Irish is to be Catholic for instance, even if you think it’s all a load of baloney it would be unthinkable to convert because…That’s part of what you are.

 

[Miserissima]

There is such a thing as unintentional ignorance.

We trust in, not presume upon, God’s economy of Grace, mercy, and forgiveness in such matters…especially for our particular judgments.

 

[Bahman]

Yes and no. The key to open our mind toward the truth is doubt on what we have accepted as the truth when you are faced with an anomaly. Our understanding from truth is relative. This is completely supported with history of knowledge as our belief changes as our understanding evolves by time. Once your intellect is well trained then it can search the truth and find the truth in ease until it reaches an anomaly. This means that framework accepted as truth cannot explain the subject matter well hence we have to question what was accepted as the truth to enter to a new paradigm.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

Let me give you another extreme example. Suppose that God punishes those who have love and mercy toward each other. Are you willing to accept such a God which is not pleasing to you?

You mean because they had love and mercy towards each other? Or they did other, bad things, and went to Hell despite having love and mercy towards each other.

 

[Bahman]

You mean because they had love and mercy towards each other? Or they did other, bad things, and went to Hell despite having love and mercy towards each other.

Yes. Assume that a person come and call himself a prophet and introduce you with a new concept of God which is opposite what Christian believe. Would such a God be pleasing to you? Why we should accept the things which are more pleasing to us? Is there any guarantee that what is more pleasing to us is more closer to truth?

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

There is no need for prophets after Jesus. There are many Saints. We can misunderstand each other, but anyone truly claiming to be a prophet would be a false prophet.

Catholicism is not simply a belief system. A belief can be the first step towards Faith, which is a matter of understanding and knowledge. Faith is intimately tied in to other virtues such as Charity and Hope.

God is Truth, Love and Beauty. The Truth is a living truth, not a set of ideas. It is beautiful and reveals God’s love.
Catholicism doesn’t involve merely the absorption of beliefs, but rather a transformation of oneself.
Jesus is the Way. He is a living person: God and man. We grow towards Him in our acts of love and through the sacraments. This is the reality of why we eat His body in the mass.

There are people blessed with many graces of the Holy Spirit. Some of us have had the grace of suffering, which demanded that we make a choice.
There are people who will only budge when they have some guarantee.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

This is why it can be impossible to convince a pothead that marijuana is bad for them. It’s like firing lead bullets into a steel skull. Nothing gets through. There’s a psychological (and spiritual) barrier in place.

Convincing one doesn’t suggest the he or she will stop smoking. Some one my realize that smoking, eating certain foods, or other activities could result in personal harm but not discontinue the activity. Or something I think more of us can relate to, are you convinced that cardiovascular exercise could contribute to your health? Does the conviction result in consistent exercise?

As used in this forum and other places in which I have heard the argument “choose” seems to refer only to the ability to come to a mental position on something. Some argue that all such choices are completely volitional. I don’t agree with this view. Just try to schedule a day on which you will decide to be convinced that a happy obese man is personally distributing gifts throughout the world in a night or decided to believe for the next 20 minute there is no sun.

The closest I think one could come is to decided to act like a set of propositions is true. Children, actors, and videogame players do this all the time. If a person does this long enough though it may be possible for the pretending to spill over to what the person believes is real (self deception). But I don’t think any one is promoting self deception to acquire religious conviction.

 

[MPat]

I don’t think you can really choose your beliefs. Think about it, what if I came to you today and told you the one true God was really Re-Atum, who pulls the sun across the sky every day and gave you life.

You’d laugh me out the door right?

Now lets put this in reverse, what if you were an Athiest and I came and told you a man walked on water and you had to believe me even if there was no proof.

I know if I hadn’t been born into a Christian household I would be very, very, very unlikely to believe. It would be an outrageous claim with no evidence.

God did not give people reason just to never employ it. Hence you can’t really help your beliefs. There are some people who do change sides so to speak, but they are the minority.

Yes, some beliefs are too hard to choose. By itself it does not imply that beliefs are not chosen.

But it is the last part that looks interesting here: if you believe that “you can’t really help your beliefs”, then do you think you are wasting your time arguing here…?

 

[NekoNecro]

I think you can change your beliefs on certain matters, but that depends on a number of other things.

If I grab a Quaker who believes in young earth creation theory (not that I’m for it), If I can show him evidence and use logical arguments to lead him to agree with my point of view there is a relativley high chance he might come to agree with me, evidence and logic permitting him to put faith in this new premise.

If I did this with a Catholic regarding Adam and Eve being a literal couple, reason and proof might as well just go in the bin. It must be rejected as false automatically regardless as to its truth.

Some people are open to change and can adapt their world views, while others you’ve little or no hope of ever doing so. It depends on how strongly those convictions are held