Can we discuss Judaism without the politics?

[HarryStotle]

Unlike the other, hotly contested reference to Jesus in Josephus – the so-called “Testimonium Flavianum” at Ant. XVIII.63-4 – this reference is almost universally regarded as genuine and as referring to the Jesus and James of the Christian traditions. And this reference has added weight given that Josephus was not commenting on something that happened long before his time on the other side of the Empire. He was a younger contemporary of James, being around 25 when James was executed, and was a fellow citizen of Jerusalem, a small city of roughly 80,000 inhabitants. It seems he was in the city when James was executed, though it may be he returned to it very soon afterwards, having just been on an embassy to the Roman Senate on behalf of the Temple priesthood (see Josephus, Life, III). Either way, as a member of the priestly caste himself, the young Josephus would have followed the circumstances of the deposition of the high priest Ananus very closely. So all this makes Josephus’ passing mention of James rather close to direct testimony and certainly makes it hard to dismiss as some kind of rumour or Christian story.
Source: https://historyforatheists.com/2018/02/jesus-mythicism-2-james-the-brother-of-the-lord/

So, Josephus very likely had first hand knowledge of James “the brother of Jesus” and also very likely had firsthand acquaintance with other Christians and Jews who could have known Jesus personally.

It is a stretch to claim Josephus had “no firsthand knowledge of Jesus” as if that implies no relevant knowledge or no access to reliable sources on Jesus. It is very plausible and indeed likely that he did.

By the way, this passage bolsters the likelihood that the other disputed passage from Josephus was not highly interpolated.

 

[ConstantLearner]

It is a stretch to claim Josephus had “no firsthand knowledge of Jesus” as if that implies no relevant knowledge or no access to reliable sources on Jesus. It is very plausible and indeed likely that he did.

To have firsthand knowledge of Jesus, Josephus would have had to have KNOWN Jesus. He didn’t.

Firsthand knowledge refers to something which the witness actually saw or heard, as distinguished from something he learned from some other person or source. It is also a knowledge that is gained through firsthand observation or experience, as distinguished from a belief based on what someone else has said.

 

[Evenshlomo]

this was a very nice summery. I would just lke to add that there’s a machloket about the beit Yosef and that some Sepharadim don’t eat milk and fish together. Good summary. Sh’koyach!

P.S: Waiting 2 hours between meat and milk as “Rabbi” states above sounds very lenient to me and I’ve never heard about this

 

[ConstantLearner]

Thank you @Evenshlomo I appreciate the knowledge you added. I hadn’t heard two hours, either.

 

[HarryStotle]

To have firsthand knowledge of Jesus, Josephus would have had to have KNOWN Jesus. He didn’t.

Firsthand knowledge refers to something which the witness actually saw or heard, as distinguished from something he learned from some other person or source. It is also a knowledge that is gained through firsthand observation or experience, as distinguished from a belief based on what someone else has said.

That is quite a high standard you are setting. It basically throws out all historical writing and analysis and makes it all hearsay. Good for you!

Solipsism becomes you!

And yet you believe so much about which you personally have no firsthand observation or experience. Consistency much?

Nah, not so much.

 

[Moses613]

For example, if I inadvertently allow some dairy to drip into a pan I use for meat, that pan, is then non-kosher and renders all food that touches it, both meat and dairy, non-kosher.

Not true. If the dairy and the pan are lower than at least 103 degrees F, you literally just have to wipe/rinse it off and go about your business. If they are hotter, you get into a question about whether the pan is kosher, but again, any other food subsequently “touching” it without heat are not non-kosher at all.

Meat and dairy cannot come into contact with one another, not even molecules.

Again, inaccurate. If dairy mixes with meat or vice versa and the larger quantity is 60x greater than the smaller quantity, then the smaller thing is nullified. So if a tiny drop of milk drips into a pot of beef stew, it’s still totally kosher.

There is one kosher law relevant to non-Jews. The Torah does not permit any human to eat the limb of an animal that was removed when the animal was still alive.

 

[Kaninchen]

Being vegetarian helps .

(in case anybody wants to get into an argument, our previous Chief Rabbi is a vegetarian, if it works for Jonathan Sacks, it works for us )

 

[ConstantLearner]

And yet you believe so much about which you personally have no firsthand observation or experience. Consistency much?

No, but I believe much of what others say who DO have firsthand experience. Do I believe Elie Wiesel’s accounts about the Holocaust? Yes. Do I believe Jon Krakauer’s account of being on Everest? Yes. Do I believe what Neil Armstrong said about being on the moon? Yes. When no firsthand account is possible, such as exists in the disappearance of MH 370, I listen to experts, then make up my mind. I believe Josephus heard what he wrote about Jesus. I don’t think he made it up, but he only knew what he heard. In the case pf the Hebrew Bible (and the Christian Bibles) I’ve been taught the various forms of criticism in my six years of formal theology study. And, I DO read Biblical Hebrew and Ancient Greek. So, consistency? Yes, very much so.

 

[ConstantLearner]

There is one kosher law relevant to non-Jews. The Torah does not permit any human to eat the limb of an animal that was removed when the animal was still alive.

It does not permit Jews to eat any animal that died of natural causes, either. I don’t think a non-Jew would want to eat that animal either.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Being vegetarian helps .

It sure does! I do not eat meat. Occasionally, salmon, but mostly fruits and vegetables, nuts and grains.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Again, inaccurate. If dairy mixes with meat or vice versa and the larger quantity is 60x greater than the smaller quantity, then the smaller thing is nullified. So if a tiny drop of milk drips into a pot of beef stew, it’s still totally kosher.

My rabbi says something different. It’s best for people to check with their rabbi. In my community, we cannot eat eggs or milk from non-kosher animals. The fat of sheep and goats is also forbidden. It goes on and on and on. That’s why I say best to check with a rabbi. What I wrote were just general guidelines to show non-Jews it can get terribly complicated since the rest of the world does not keep kosher. It involves a lot more than not eating pig or shellfish and not mixing meat and milk.

 

[Moses613]

It does not permit Jews to eat any animal that died of natural causes, either. I don’t think a non-Jew would want to eat that animal either.

I think you’re thinking about it with too modern a perspective. In any case, whether they want to or not, they are allowed.

 

[Moses613]

My rabbi says something different. It’s best for people to check with their rabbi. In my community, we cannot eat eggs or milk from non-kosher animals.

No community eats eggs or milk from non-kosher animals, because they are 100% not kosher. If your rabbi does not permit eating milk that has been nullified in meat 60-to-1, then he is not following Jewish law as laid out in the Shulchan Aruch.

The exception to that rule is that the rabbis decreed you are not allowed to intentionally mix them. If it was intentional, your rabbi may forbid it.

Relevant article:

When it's Null and Void: Understanding Batel BShishim (One-Sixtieth) | STAR-K Kosher Certification

 

[meltzerboy2]

Doesn’t the waiting period depend, in part, on the country of origin: for example, 2 hours in Holland (I vaguely recall), 72 minutes in Germany, 6 hours in Russia, and so on? Also, a waiting period between milk and meat as well if hard cheese is consumed, as I recall my grandmother telling me.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Thank you for the link I appreciate it. No he does not allow non-kosher foods, and yes, he abides by the guidelines. We can drink the milk you mentioned.

As I said, I wasn’t trying to write anything exhaustive about the various Jewish communities and kashrut because that could take an entire book, only trying to show non-Jews it involves far more than just not mixing meat and milk and avoiding shellfish.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Doesn’t the waiting period depend, in part, on the country of origin: for example, 2 hours in Holland (I vaguely recall), 72 minutes in Germany, 6 hours in Russia, and so on? Also, a waiting period between milk and meat as well if hard cheese is consumed, as I recall my grandmother telling me.

I’m sure it does.

For Orthodox Jews, the most common wait time is six hours. According to Sephardic tradition, six hours is not merely tradition, but halakhah , required by Jewish law. Ashkenazic tradition says that more lenient options are also halakhically correct. Most agree that the meat meal should be concluded with appropriate blessings, signifying the meal is over. You should then clean and rinse your mouth and wash your hands.

Some say one hour is sufficient time, and this has been the accepted tradition of Dutch Jews. German Jews follow a tradition of waiting three hours. Forst says this may be based on the idea that in winter the time between meals is shorter; therefore, it is acceptable to wait a shorter amount of time year round.

Kosher Details: Waiting Between Meals | My Jewish Learning

 

[meltzerboy2]

I reversed it then: 1 hour or so for the Dutch and 3 hours for Germans. Thanks for this.

 

[ConstantLearner]

You’re welcome.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

And yet you believe so much about which you personally have no firsthand observation or experience. Consistency much?

No, but I believe much of what others say who DO have firsthand experience. Do I believe Elie Wiesel’s accounts about the Holocaust? Yes. Do I believe Jon Krakauer’s account of being on Everest? Yes. Do I believe what Neil Armstrong said about being on the moon? Yes. When no firsthand account is possible, such as exists in the disappearance of MH 370, I listen to experts, then make up my mind. I believe Josephus heard what he wrote about Jesus. I don’t think he made it up, but he only knew what he heard. In the case pf the Hebrew Bible (and the Christian Bibles) I’ve been taught the various forms of criticism in my six years of formal theology study. And, I DO read Biblical Hebrew and Ancient Greek. So, consistency? Yes, very much so.

I see. So you only trust first hand testimony and not any other evidence that may contradict that testimony?

That is a very strange and, shall we say, illogical standard, that leaves the impression that you blindly trust anything any individuals might claim and willfully choose not to consider facts that might render that testimony false.

So, speaking of testaments, and following your method – i.e., that you “believe much of what others say who DO have firsthand experience” – you must believe much of what John and Paul report as first hand observers regarding what Christ and the early Church did and said, which means you must adhere to a very high Christology, indeed.

On the other hand, I trust that you will backpedal from this position to a posture of doubting much of what others say even when they DO have first hand experience, depending upon which of your closely held beliefs are possibly in jeopardy.

It strikes me that your “first-hand experience” qualification is one of convenience rather than one having any kind of epistemological value or constancy.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I see. So you only trust first hand testimony and not any other evidence that may contradict that testimony?

Evidently you didn’t read all my post. I said I trust experts in their field. No astronomer has been to Mars, but I trust many highly educated ones to know a great deal about it. I specifically wrote: “When no firsthand account is possible, such as exists in the disappearance of MH 370, I listen to experts, then make up my mind.” You ignored that, I assume, to suit your own agenda.

I read several books written by experts in aviation and then came to my own conclusions about what happened, based on the writings of those experts, none of whom had firsthand experience with the disappearance of MH 370, or they wouldn’t be around to write books.

This thread was about Judaism without politics or nastiness. I’m not going to be a party to derailing the thread. Besides, I hate bickering. I don’t mind an honest difference of opinion, but I don’t like the constant back-and-forth bickering you seem to engage in. I won’t be a party to it any longer.

I think we’ve taken this as far as it can go, so I will not be answering any more of your questions directed to me. On any of the forums. Nothing against you personally, just against bickering in general.

Thank you. Have a good day. Shalom.