Can we discuss Judaism without the politics?

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Another great thread! So glad I joined this forum.
I was raised Orthodox but am now completely agnostic re. God. During my forays into other religions I have read a lot, and I do mean a lot, about the N.T. Especially about Jesus execution. I tend to settle on critical scholars many of which are believers, some are not as they tend to rely on what can actually be demonstrated from the historical evidence. They tend to rely on plausibility, not just possibility.

Harrystote: The typical response is that he was tried for sedition against Rome for claiming to be the Messiah, the Son of David and heir to the throne of the Jewish people.

My personal opinion is that the Sanhedrin wanted to get rid of him but they had no authority to crucify anyone in Roman occupied Judea. Pilate, on the other hand did have this authority and had no problem using it. I think Judas gave Pilate the information he needed to execute Jesus. He claimed to be King of the Jews and No way would Pilate ignore a threat to his rule. He crucified others for much less. So, the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus out their hair (blasphemy) and Pilate had a reason to accommodate them with the sedition charge. Note: the sign on the cross was a sedition charge. Claiming Jesus was God using only the Synoptics is possible but difficult. John leaves no doubt. In Matthew, the claim was “the Son of God”, not God himself and in Judaism that is a big difference. Pilate probably didn’t give a hoot about the theological claims but The Sanhedrin did. Pilate did care about sedition and saw an opportunity to please the Sanhedrin and his own position.
After the crucifixion, it’s all your theological opinions about the resurrection and there is no way to HISTORICALLY claim it. Only a theological way for the claim to be decided.
 
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Rabbi said:
I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.
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I’m sorry, but I completely disagree with almost everything you wrote, and I would be glad to find sources for you, a little later.

You are assigning a lot of positions to me that I never stated. I never spoke about an eternal hell, reincarnation or the like. I never said everything is “always” measure for measure. You are conflating “punishment” with not giving a reward. Stating that an atheist cannot be rewarded for his deeds in the afterlife is not taking a position on punishment or lack thereof. Someone’s pet cat also will not merit the afterlife, and it will also not be punished by burning in hell. It simply ceases to exist upon death.

I’ll try to get back to the thread with clear sources.
 
So you’re now comparing an atheist, perhaps a more loving person than your neighbor, to a cat who won’t merit an after life?
 
I blame them for the behaviour of the fingerprint sensor on my Hitchhiker’s Guide, Galaxy s8 edition.
 
Or someone might, anyway.

Bound to be folk steeped in the Classics around here.
 
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Moses613 said:
No, God does not reward those who do not even believe in reward and punishment. It’s “mida k’neged mida - measure against measure.” They do not believe in reward, so they will not receive it. The Rambam, the rabbi in your avatar picture, has written much on this topic.
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I think it’s more like @meltzerboy2 characterized it: the poster in question probably wants to believe, but is finding it difficult to do so. As @meltzerboy2 characterized it, sort of analogous to the “dark night of the soul” experienced and written about by St. John of the Cross. I think most of us go through that. One famous example is St. Teresa of Calcutta. She wrote her confessor how deeply she wanted to have faith, but just could not. She didn’t feel it. Her confessor told her that the deep experience of desiring faith in G-d was, in itself, a kind of faith. This lasted well over fifty years for her! Another Catholic saint who had problems with faith was St. Therese of Lisieux.

At times, life after death seems “too good to be true.” The fact that we will be reunited with our deceased loved ones, at times, seems “too good to be true.” Remember, Christians do not have any structured periods of mourning like Jews. They are usually less of a community than most Jews I know.

I think there are a lot of people who want to believe, but find they can’t, or who feel their faith is insufficient. Like most Jews, I am more concerned with this life than the life to follow. I assume that things will be fine as long as I treat others as myself. Therefore, I am very mindful of how I speak with someone, how I care for the sick and the poor, how I see G-d in all, even those who can’t stand me. Do I sometimes fail? Sure. But I get back on track. I just don’t think much about the life to come other than longing for the Messiah day after day. Christians are much more focused on the life to come, to their detriment, I think. They forget that our day-to-day interactions greatly influence the reward we will receive from G-d.
 
Rabbi said:
So you’re now comparing an atheist, perhaps a more loving person than your neighbor, to a cat who won’t merit an after life?
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That sounds so Christian! What lives, lives. What has never lived, e.g., a salt shaker, does not come to life. (I learned that from a very famous rabbi.)
 
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@Pattylt I don’t even think the Sanhedrin cared. Caiaphas, the High Priest wanted to retain the power, prestige, and luxury that came with being the High Priest.

I believe Jesus did exist and that he was probably a much more charismatic messianic pretender than those who came before him. He was threatening life-as-usual in the Temple. Caiaphas couldn’t have that, especially not at Passover, with so many Jews flooding Palestine for the holiday. So, he did what he had to do.
 
Start said:
That’s not a Dark Night of the Soul.
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Of course it is. I had to write a huge paper on the whole thing when studying for my MA in theology. It was so involved, the paper, I almost quit college rather than write it. My other major was English Literature, and I was really sick of the long research papers as I was nearing the end of my six years at school.
 
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Actually, it is very Kabbalistic to say that all inanimate objects are alive in some form.
 
HarryStotle said:
And notice that in all of those instances the Romans acted on their own behalf and didn’t get any prompting from the Sanhedrin to execute those Messiahs. Also note that the Romans arrested and executed the claimant and his followers. That didn’t happen in the case of Jesus, which means Pilate and the Romans didn’t see him or his followers as a threat to Rome.
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Pilate probably didn’t care if Jesus was a threat to Temple life. They didn’t care who was High Priest. But Caiaphas cared. He loved his power, his wealth, his luxury. So, what you know to have been a sort of kangaroo trial was instituted. But the person instituting was Caiaphas, not the Romans.
 
Good point! The reason we say kaddish is for those souls who (most of us) didn’t merit Gan Eden immediately, therefore, they must spend some time contemplating what they did wrong and how they wasted being good. We pray so that HaShem may have mercy upon their souls and send them to Gan Eden sooner. And you’re totally right, this world, as Confucius said, means more than the next.
 
Yes, you are right, sorry. I don’t know any Eastern Christians myself, so didn’t think of them. I was thinking more of the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. But yes, you’re right. Still, they aren’t as structured as those in Judaism, though.
 
ConstantLearner said:
I think it’s more like @meltzerboy2 characterized it: the poster in question probably wants to believe, but is finding it difficult to do so.
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I wasn’t making a specific reference to @(name removed by moderator), with whom I’ve only had positive interactions in this forum, and I don’t pass judgment on any individuals, I leave that to God. As you imply in your answer, I am also skeptical that most who call themselves atheist really are. But that’s another discussion.
 
Moses613 said:
As you imply in your answer, I am also skeptical that most who call themselves atheist really are.
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A cute example: The eminent philosopher Isaiah Berlin, an “atheist” Jew, asked Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks to officiate at his funeral:
“Chief Rabbi, Isaiah’s just been talking about you.” Rabbis were not the usual subject of Isaiah Berlin’s conversations, so I asked in what context he had mentioned me, and she said, “Isaiah has just asked you to officiate at his funeral.” Clearly Isaiah knew. Four days later he died and I officiated at his funeral. His biographer, Michael Ignatieff, asked me why Isaiah, a secular Jew, wanted a religious funeral. I said—I hope I didn’t get it wrong—that Isaiah may have been a secular Jew but he was a loyal Jew.
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So, what did it mean that Berlin “didn’t believe”?

I think he didn’t know himself. In his own words, “when it comes to religion, I’m tone-deaf.”
 
Actually, I don’t think it’s off-topic at all, because @Rabbi made multiple claims in his post having to do with “Judaism” (the topic), with which I disagree, and to which I will respond in due time.
 
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