R
Rabbi
Guest
Do you disagree on the divinity of HaZohar then?
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C
ConstantLearner
Guest
It’s not really off-topic. Most people have a bit of the agnostic in them, at least at some point in their lives. And if we don’t concern ourselves with this world and its creation, what good is it to worry, or even think about, the next?
R
Rabbi
Guest
The thing I can never understand with agnosticism is how they don’t believe in a personal, loving G-d who stakes everything in every human being. How can this not be possible! I mean, if G-d created this world and put us in it, would He not care to see how His creation turned out? Then they say that G-d can’t have emotion, as described in Tanakh (and I’m a Maimonidean!), but why not? Can’t G-d do anything? And if He gave US emotion, why not Himself? See? Doesn’t it all make more sense this way? Anyway, I’m just rambling off.
M
Moses613
Guest
Not sure how you arrived at this question… I’m not used to referring to post-Biblical works as “divine,” do you also talk about the “divinity of the Talmud” etc? I would talk about whether it is authoritative, accepted, wise, true, accurate… The Zohar is a legitimate sefer.Do you disagree on the divinity of HaZohar then?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I think you’ll find that the Romans appointed and deposed High Priests (including Caiaphas).They didn’t care who was High Priest.
You’re falling for the NT framing (in more senses than one) narrative, you know.
M
Moses613
Guest
Indeed.I think you’ll find that the Romans appointed and deposed High Priests (including Caiaphas).
Wikipedia: “According to Josephus, Caiaphas was appointed in AD 18 by the Roman prefect who preceded Pontius Pilate, Valerius Gratus.”
R
Rabbi
Guest
I arrived at it when it seemed that you didn’t want to talk about reincarnation. Sorry, my bad. Yes, it is not divine in the sense of the word, it was by the Rashbi and has authority (those Jews who reject it have no idea why, meaning, they don’t understand it or never really read it to begin with). Thank you for clearing that up.
R
Rabbi
Guest
Perhaps I should emphasize my point better, than you’d understand and there’d be no argument, right? Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, if that’s so, I apologize.
So, does G-d only love the Jews? What happens to righteous Gentiles? As you’ll recall, Yeshayahu said [56:7]: “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
Now let’s examine that for a minute. Bereshis 12:3 says, “And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you.”
That’s interesting. ALL the families of the earth. Doesn’t that include atheists, too?
Now try and think of it like this: G-d created all people in His image, in His holiness. We are all reflections of the Divine Will and His powerful persona, and He loves us more than a mother could ever love her baby daughter, even in troubled times.
Now consider this also: Adam, Chavah, Noach, Avraham Avinu, Iyov and Rut (grandmother of Dovid HaMelech). . . where any of them Jews? What about Rabbi Akiva? Was he Jewish before his conversion, yet G-d chose him to be His worthy sage! The best known of all Chazal in Talmud!
Perhaps the sole reason the Almighty chose them all was not because they were part of the Tribe ethnically, but because they personified what it means to be a good person and do what is right, even in the face of hostility and depravity.
See, in our tradition living an upright, fulfilling life is superior to blood atonement. Don’t cut the string which stitches us together as a people.
Remember, as Jews, we don’t normally ask for converts. Unlike our Christian or Islamic friends, we don’t believe we’re the only ones who have salvation, nor the keys to living a good life. This philosophy is tainted with fear and control. The real reason behind Rabbinic Judaism refusing converts is more complex. As Jews, we must keep the instructions of Torah, we cannot eat what we want, nor be active on Saturdays. There’s a lot of spiritual weight we carry, Gentiles are free of this, and the rabbis know this. We’d rather have a Gentile, a non-Jew, stay a good person than convert and have to fulfill all these divine ordinances and requirements. After all, once someone converts to the Jewish faith, there is no turning back.
So, does G-d only love the Jews? What happens to righteous Gentiles? As you’ll recall, Yeshayahu said [56:7]: “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
Now let’s examine that for a minute. Bereshis 12:3 says, “And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you.”
That’s interesting. ALL the families of the earth. Doesn’t that include atheists, too?
Now try and think of it like this: G-d created all people in His image, in His holiness. We are all reflections of the Divine Will and His powerful persona, and He loves us more than a mother could ever love her baby daughter, even in troubled times.
Now consider this also: Adam, Chavah, Noach, Avraham Avinu, Iyov and Rut (grandmother of Dovid HaMelech). . . where any of them Jews? What about Rabbi Akiva? Was he Jewish before his conversion, yet G-d chose him to be His worthy sage! The best known of all Chazal in Talmud!
Perhaps the sole reason the Almighty chose them all was not because they were part of the Tribe ethnically, but because they personified what it means to be a good person and do what is right, even in the face of hostility and depravity.
See, in our tradition living an upright, fulfilling life is superior to blood atonement. Don’t cut the string which stitches us together as a people.
Remember, as Jews, we don’t normally ask for converts. Unlike our Christian or Islamic friends, we don’t believe we’re the only ones who have salvation, nor the keys to living a good life. This philosophy is tainted with fear and control. The real reason behind Rabbinic Judaism refusing converts is more complex. As Jews, we must keep the instructions of Torah, we cannot eat what we want, nor be active on Saturdays. There’s a lot of spiritual weight we carry, Gentiles are free of this, and the rabbis know this. We’d rather have a Gentile, a non-Jew, stay a good person than convert and have to fulfill all these divine ordinances and requirements. After all, once someone converts to the Jewish faith, there is no turning back.
R
Rabbi
Guest
Now I’ll ask you this: why did G-d choose the Jewish nation? What’s the point of being chosen? Why keep the commandments, why even bother choosing anyone? The truth is, the records tell us that G-d did not have the Jewish nation in mind. In fact, He first approached the children of Esav, Amon, and Mo’av!
If you believe that Jews think their special, or have more brain power or something, than please read Devarim 7:7. G-d tells Moshe Rabbineu, and all the people at Sinai, that He did not chose us because we were a strong, warrior clan nation, or because we were rich and had reserved vast amounts of gold to build our temples. None of it. The King of Kings chose the Jewish nation simply because we were smaller than all the other nations, and because He loved our forefather, Avraham, whom He had made a divine pact with generations ago before our slavery in Egypt. These are not my words, they’re G-d’s words. The prophet Yeshayahu takes this a step further [49:6]: “And He said, ‘It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Yaakov and to bring back the besieged of Yisrael, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.’”
For anyone to dare assert that G-d’s “salvation,” reaching to the “ends of the earth,” is only for the Jews, is more malicious than all the anti-Semites in the world combined. Such a G-d has no place being called such! Avraham Avinu made this very point when he stubbornly stood up to G-d for the defense of the twin wicked cities and declared: “Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?” [Bereshis 18:25].
So. . . would G-d abandon a righteous Gentile over a wicked Jew? Did He not present Himself and salvation to the Gentiles of Ninveh as depicted by the words of Yonah [3:10]?
In the Talmud, we find many statements by our Chazal, all of whom had been favored by G-d and given divine revelation, so we can be sure what they said is truthful and not just wishful thinking.
In Yevamot 79a, B.T., we find the following: that Jews, by nature, are “merciful, [and] have a sense of shame and are kind.” This nature is reflected by G-d. Moreover, we find in Shamot 22:20 and Vayikra 19:34, that we’re not to mistreat strangers and foreigners, for G-d has treated us fairly in reliving us of bondage from Egypt. We can further deduce that if G-d commands us to treat Gentiles fairly and kindly, even if they be pagans (the text doesn’t mention that they have to be righteous Gentiles), then why can’t we expect the same of Him? According to tradition, and the exegesis of the text, we can be sure that G-d won’t disregard reward to the faithful and kind of heart, regardless or not if they’ve ever heard of Him. Just think of it like this: would the G-d of Yisrael dare punish those who’ve never had the opportunity to hear His message? G-d doesn’t work this way.
If you believe that Jews think their special, or have more brain power or something, than please read Devarim 7:7. G-d tells Moshe Rabbineu, and all the people at Sinai, that He did not chose us because we were a strong, warrior clan nation, or because we were rich and had reserved vast amounts of gold to build our temples. None of it. The King of Kings chose the Jewish nation simply because we were smaller than all the other nations, and because He loved our forefather, Avraham, whom He had made a divine pact with generations ago before our slavery in Egypt. These are not my words, they’re G-d’s words. The prophet Yeshayahu takes this a step further [49:6]: “And He said, ‘It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Yaakov and to bring back the besieged of Yisrael, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.’”
For anyone to dare assert that G-d’s “salvation,” reaching to the “ends of the earth,” is only for the Jews, is more malicious than all the anti-Semites in the world combined. Such a G-d has no place being called such! Avraham Avinu made this very point when he stubbornly stood up to G-d for the defense of the twin wicked cities and declared: “Far be it from You to do a thing such as this, to put to death the righteous with the wicked so that the righteous should be like the wicked. Far be it from You! Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?” [Bereshis 18:25].
So. . . would G-d abandon a righteous Gentile over a wicked Jew? Did He not present Himself and salvation to the Gentiles of Ninveh as depicted by the words of Yonah [3:10]?
In the Talmud, we find many statements by our Chazal, all of whom had been favored by G-d and given divine revelation, so we can be sure what they said is truthful and not just wishful thinking.
In Yevamot 79a, B.T., we find the following: that Jews, by nature, are “merciful, [and] have a sense of shame and are kind.” This nature is reflected by G-d. Moreover, we find in Shamot 22:20 and Vayikra 19:34, that we’re not to mistreat strangers and foreigners, for G-d has treated us fairly in reliving us of bondage from Egypt. We can further deduce that if G-d commands us to treat Gentiles fairly and kindly, even if they be pagans (the text doesn’t mention that they have to be righteous Gentiles), then why can’t we expect the same of Him? According to tradition, and the exegesis of the text, we can be sure that G-d won’t disregard reward to the faithful and kind of heart, regardless or not if they’ve ever heard of Him. Just think of it like this: would the G-d of Yisrael dare punish those who’ve never had the opportunity to hear His message? G-d doesn’t work this way.
R
Rabbi
Guest
In Peah 1:1, from the Talmud Yerushalmi, it states (citing Iyov 37:23), “With justice and an abundance of kindness, He [G-d] does not deal harshly.”
Jews have always understood this verse in Iyov to mean beyond our own kindred. In short, this spectacular verse encompasses all of creation, both Jew and non-Jew alike.
Centuries after the completion of both Talmuds, Rambam wrote, “Righteous Gentiles have a place in Olam HaBa.” Moreover, both Rashi and Menachem Meiri agreed that Christians weren’t pagans. This was simply because they didn’t sacrifice life flesh to icons. In that respect, they too have a share in the World to Come since they worshiped Jesus in addition to the G-d of Israel, as their lives are also “governed by religion.” This concept is known as shittuf (or, worship with of G-d with “association” of other deities). Rabbi Meiri ended his statement with the belief that Christians could then be counted as part of the Noachide tradition.
Rav Yisrael Lipschutz, the Tiferet Yisrael, wrote that even the “average” among the Gentiles is reserved a place in the afterlife. By “average,” we can induce he means those who haven’t kept an ounce of the laws of Noach. He writes:
“Even without the holy words of our Chazal who told us this [i.e., that pious Gentiles merit Olam HaBa], we would know this from our intellect because ‘G-d is just in all His ways and benevolent in all His deeds.’ We see that many pious Gentiles recognize the Creator, believe in the divinity of Scripture, act compassionately toward Yisrael, and some have done great things for the entire world! Could you imagine that these great deeds will not be rewarded in Olam HaBa [simply because they never heard of Torah, or didn’t take any of it seriously]? G-d does not withhold the reward of any creature. Even if you say that these pious ones who keep the seven Noachide commandments would not have the status of a Ger Toshav because they never made a formal acceptance before a court or because we do not accept Gerei Toshav in our day, since they do not act like Esav, they have a portion in Olam HaBa.”
Now I’ll get talmudic with ya! This is from Avodah Zarah 10b. "Once, [the Gentile] Antonius asked a rabbi: ‘Shall I enter the world to come?’ ‘Yes!’ said the rabbi. ‘But,’ said Antoninus, 'is it not written, ‘There will be no remnant to the house of Esav?’ ‘That,’ the rabbi replied, ‘applies only to those whose evil deeds are like to those of Esav.’
Jews have always understood this verse in Iyov to mean beyond our own kindred. In short, this spectacular verse encompasses all of creation, both Jew and non-Jew alike.
Centuries after the completion of both Talmuds, Rambam wrote, “Righteous Gentiles have a place in Olam HaBa.” Moreover, both Rashi and Menachem Meiri agreed that Christians weren’t pagans. This was simply because they didn’t sacrifice life flesh to icons. In that respect, they too have a share in the World to Come since they worshiped Jesus in addition to the G-d of Israel, as their lives are also “governed by religion.” This concept is known as shittuf (or, worship with of G-d with “association” of other deities). Rabbi Meiri ended his statement with the belief that Christians could then be counted as part of the Noachide tradition.
Rav Yisrael Lipschutz, the Tiferet Yisrael, wrote that even the “average” among the Gentiles is reserved a place in the afterlife. By “average,” we can induce he means those who haven’t kept an ounce of the laws of Noach. He writes:
“Even without the holy words of our Chazal who told us this [i.e., that pious Gentiles merit Olam HaBa], we would know this from our intellect because ‘G-d is just in all His ways and benevolent in all His deeds.’ We see that many pious Gentiles recognize the Creator, believe in the divinity of Scripture, act compassionately toward Yisrael, and some have done great things for the entire world! Could you imagine that these great deeds will not be rewarded in Olam HaBa [simply because they never heard of Torah, or didn’t take any of it seriously]? G-d does not withhold the reward of any creature. Even if you say that these pious ones who keep the seven Noachide commandments would not have the status of a Ger Toshav because they never made a formal acceptance before a court or because we do not accept Gerei Toshav in our day, since they do not act like Esav, they have a portion in Olam HaBa.”
Now I’ll get talmudic with ya! This is from Avodah Zarah 10b. "Once, [the Gentile] Antonius asked a rabbi: ‘Shall I enter the world to come?’ ‘Yes!’ said the rabbi. ‘But,’ said Antoninus, 'is it not written, ‘There will be no remnant to the house of Esav?’ ‘That,’ the rabbi replied, ‘applies only to those whose evil deeds are like to those of Esav.’
R
Rabbi
Guest
Therefore, according to all the views presented to us in Jewish theology, the G-d of Yisrael does not judge a person for what they don’t know, meaning, even IF an atheist were to die today, but throughout life, he or she walked humbly and cared for everyone they met, there is no reason why G-d wouldn’t reward them.
Anything less, is a G-d devoid of worship. Such a ruthless being doesn’t deserve our praise. If G-d deals only with Midot HaDin, and has no Midot HaRachamim, and abandons the majority of His creation for no good reason at all other than to see their pains in Gehinnom, I’m sure we can all relate that we’d rather be thrown into the pit of hell and suffer for all eternity with the righteous of the nations than devote worship and praise to such a monster.
With that, I hope I’ve made my position clear. Take care, and always, shalom
[Sorry, I did type that all out beforehand, but the site would only allow me to post it all at once in that format]
Anything less, is a G-d devoid of worship. Such a ruthless being doesn’t deserve our praise. If G-d deals only with Midot HaDin, and has no Midot HaRachamim, and abandons the majority of His creation for no good reason at all other than to see their pains in Gehinnom, I’m sure we can all relate that we’d rather be thrown into the pit of hell and suffer for all eternity with the righteous of the nations than devote worship and praise to such a monster.
With that, I hope I’ve made my position clear. Take care, and always, shalom
[Sorry, I did type that all out beforehand, but the site would only allow me to post it all at once in that format]
M
Moses613
Guest
I meant I don’t want to get into a discussion about what reincarnation means or who it does or doesn’t apply to, as it’s an esoteric subject that is probably misunderstood by almost everyone who talks about it.
The Zohar is from the “school of Rashbi” - it’s clearly obvious that it was expounded upon by later generations of talmidim, and some traditional Kabbalists have said as much explicitly. Bear in mind the Zohar was compiled from many different manuscripts that were circulated secretly for hundreds of years among a select group of scholars.
Regarding your latest posts, I will respond later. By the way, Rabbi Akiva was not a convert.
The Zohar is from the “school of Rashbi” - it’s clearly obvious that it was expounded upon by later generations of talmidim, and some traditional Kabbalists have said as much explicitly. Bear in mind the Zohar was compiled from many different manuscripts that were circulated secretly for hundreds of years among a select group of scholars.
Regarding your latest posts, I will respond later. By the way, Rabbi Akiva was not a convert.
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R
Rabbi
Guest
Thanks for your response. Yes, Zohar was added to, some even say Rashbi only wrote just few lines. As far as the Jewish soul thing goes, yes, many don’t understand it and take it to mean that Jews are superior to Gentiles, which is just sheer bogus.
Also, I’d like to hear your take on R. Akiva. I always thought he was a convert, at least he hated Torah scholars and wanted to rip their throats out before me met Rachel. And what do you know, he ended up becoming the greatest Torah scholar there ever was! Amazing story indeed, though he was sadly wrong - and committed a great crime - by associating Bar Kochba as HaMashiach WITHOUT being told beforehand by HaShem, or witnessing any of the signs. A shame. Some say those who did such wouldn’t merit Olam HaBa, but I like to think Akiva would be there. Again, that’s just their hashkafa, you’ve got to be careful with that.
Also, I’d like to hear your take on R. Akiva. I always thought he was a convert, at least he hated Torah scholars and wanted to rip their throats out before me met Rachel. And what do you know, he ended up becoming the greatest Torah scholar there ever was! Amazing story indeed, though he was sadly wrong - and committed a great crime - by associating Bar Kochba as HaMashiach WITHOUT being told beforehand by HaShem, or witnessing any of the signs. A shame. Some say those who did such wouldn’t merit Olam HaBa, but I like to think Akiva would be there. Again, that’s just their hashkafa, you’ve got to be careful with that.
R
Rabbi
Guest
@Moses613, that post was for you.
R
Rabbi
Guest
@Moses613
Now wait a minute! He didn’t become Nasi of the Great Court beause he was a convert, right? What other reason would there be then?
Now wait a minute! He didn’t become Nasi of the Great Court beause he was a convert, right? What other reason would there be then?
M
Moses613
Guest
The story is in the Talmud. His name was Akiva ben (son of) Yosef and he was originally an unlearned “am haaretz,” which always refers to a Jewish person. He hated Torah scholars because he was jealous of their knowledge. After he met Rachel, he went to Yeshiva and learned Torah himself and became the generation’s greatest scholar.Also, I’d like to hear your take on R. Akiva.
R
Rabbi
Guest
What about Berachos 27a? Is that where you’re getting that from? Um…
R
Rabbi
Guest
But wasn’t Akiva’s father, Yosef, a ger tzedek? You are right about “am haaretz.” Seems like a contradiction of sources, you know, one says he was killed by the Romans, another that he died in the academy. Guess its up in the air.
M
Moses613
Guest
Looks like you mean 27b, and it doesn’t say he’s a convert, it just says he lacks “zechus avos” merit of his forefathers, in relation to Rabbi Elazar ben Azaria, who was a 10th-gen. descendant of Ezra, and by extension of the House of David, I believe.What about Berachos 27a?
Perhaps there is a commentary that writes Yosef was a convert. Even if true, that doesn’t make Akiva a convert. He was a born Jew.
Update: The commentary of Rav Nissim Gaon on the side (at the bottom) cites the Yerushalmi, which has R. Akiva saying that R. Elazar b. Azaria is “descended from greater people than I am.” Still ambiguous, but does not imply his ancestors were converts necessarily.
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R
Rabbi
Guest
Thanks for clarifying that. Don’t you think Akiva could have also meant by being a “am haaretz” as being illiterate?
True, I think it might have been a certain hashkafa to say his father, or grandfather, was a convert. True, he’d still be Jewish then, but he might as well have been a non-Jew without Torah till 40. I’ll have to look for it harder.
True, I think it might have been a certain hashkafa to say his father, or grandfather, was a convert. True, he’d still be Jewish then, but he might as well have been a non-Jew without Torah till 40. I’ll have to look for it harder.
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