Can we drop "alone" from faith and grace?

[Tony_the_mad]

On the other hand, I guess the reverse question is can Catholics give up the phrase “faith and works”, which from our perspective, is also a barrier.

Jon

As a Catholic, I am trying to stay out of this conversation as the original poster asked, but since you asked.

Catholics will not give up the term ‘faith and works’ any more than we will give up ‘grace and faith’ or ‘faith and baptism’. Catholics have always accepted that we are saved by Grace through faith.

It is not the word ‘works’ that is a problem. It is the word ‘alone’. The ONLY way that the term alone can be used correctly is by ‘God alone’. In Romans it is emphasized that faith is not something we can take credit for but is God’s work. To say we are saved by God’s grace and faith alone is to say that God saves us ONLY by our faith. It limits the way that God can work through us.

Can you not see what evil that word alone has done? Don’t you want to obey ALL of Jesus’ commands not just by faith? Do you NOT want to see God working through you when you feed the poor or do the work of Christ? Is not love and hope equal gifts from God as faith?

I know you have plenty of reasons for why ‘Faith alone’ does not preclude any of the above last paragraph. But understand that words have power even when you do your best to counter them with exceptions and qualifications, etc. Already, there are a number of Protestant groups who throw out the importance of Baptism because of ‘faith alone’. What else have they thrown out? What else will they throw out?

You may not like the term ‘faith and works’ and that is fine. For the most part the Catholic Church does not use that term either. Even that term is way too simplistic to describe the process of salvation.

I will step out now to let you converse among yourselves like the original poster asked. I hope I didn’t overstep the bounds of answering that question too much .

 

[JonNC]

=Tony the mad;11059705]As a Catholic, I am trying to stay out of this conversation as the original poster asked, but since you asked.

Catholics will not give up the term ‘faith and works’ any more than we will give up ‘grace and faith’ or ‘faith and baptism’. Catholics have always accepted that we are saved by Grace through faith.

Well, we agree on “grace and faith”, and “faith and baptism”.

It is not the word ‘works’ that is a problem. It is the word ‘alone’. The ONLY way that the term alone can be used correctly is by ‘God alone’. In Romans it is emphasized that faith is not something we can take credit for but is God’s work. To say we are saved by God’s grace and faith alone is to say that God saves us ONLY by our faith. It limits the way that God can work through us.

Actually, what we are saying is that it is only by faith that we access justification. That’s all it means.

Can you not see what evil that word alone has done? Don’t you want to obey ALL of Jesus’ commands not just by faith? Do you NOT want to see God working through you when you feed the poor or do the work of Christ? Is not love and hope equal gifts from God as faith?

Of course we respond to the Spirit working through us. Have you not followed the thread, and what Lutherans here have posted? The quotes provided?

I know you have plenty of reasons for why ‘Faith alone’ does not preclude any of the above last paragraph. But understand that words have power even when you do your best to counter them with exceptions and qualifications, etc. Already, there are a number of Protestant groups who throw out the importance of Baptism because of ‘faith alone’. What else have they thrown out? What else will they throw out?

More importantly is definitions and explanations are powerful. Those Protestants who ignore baptism would do so regardless of whether or not Lutherans say sola fide. They also throw out the Eucharist, and some confession.

You may not like the term ‘faith and works’ and that is fine. For the most part the Catholic Church does not use that term either. Even that term is way too simplistic to describe the process of salvation.

Exactly. It’s a kind of shorthand. There is deeper meaning. Same with faith alone.

I will step out now to let you converse among yourselves like the original poster asked. I hope I didn’t overstep the bounds of answering that question too much

I’d prefer you respond.

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Jon, the RCC does not teach grace or faith is a result of our works.

 

[concretecamper]

Clarification for Catholics from The Council of Trent.

Canon 24.

If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

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[rcwitness]

Council of Trent:

Chapter V
"It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight."

 

[fhansen]

In Catholicism all the theological virtues, aside from the works they produce, are part of man’s justice, love/charity being the most important. More from Trent:

"…whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow"