Can we establish our own church/parish?

[ConstantineTG]

Nothing to be sorry about. So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would like to find a non-ethnic Eastern Catholic parish which is authentically Eastern? Are you having issues with “Latinizations” which have crept into your parish?

I have a long list of concerns, some of which I can’t share publicly without throwing some key people in my parish under the bus. Latinizations are the least of these concerns.

 

[jwinch2]

I have a long list of concerns, some of which I can’t share publicly without throwing some key people in my parish under the bus. Latinizations are the least of these concerns.

Fair enough.

I hope you find what you are looking for. I won’t insult you by asking if you can’t just go to another parish. If you could, you wouldn’t be looking to start a new one, you would just switch.

I’ll pray for you and your situation tonight when I do Compline.

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fair enough.

I hope you find what you are looking for. I won’t insult you by asking if you can’t just go to another parish. If you could, you wouldn’t be looking to start a new one, you would just switch.

I’ll pray for you and your situation tonight when I do Compline.

Peace,

Thank you.

Well, the only other parish I have the option of switching to is across the communion fence.

 

[jwinch2]

Well, the only other parish I have the option of switching to is across the communion fence.

Putting together your statements in this thread and from the tone of a few other things you have written lately on different threads, I figured as much. I hope it does not come to that.

Prayers have been offered for a successful resolution to your situation.

Peace,

 

[5Loaves]

To answer your question, yes, it is possible to start a new mission parish…
We gathered some interested people, started having services together (even services like Vespers, Akathists, Matins, etc.) without a priest, and eventually found a place for our services and activities. We found a Latin parochial school that was closed and the classroom we have the chapel set up in doesn’t have any pews.

I would recommend that you put out some feelers to see if there are interested people, and then make a proposal to the Bishop. I think Bishop +Kenneth will give a blessing to try something if there is demonstrated interest.

Another thing the bishop might suggest is having an additional English liturgy at the local parish and see what kind of interest that stirs up before granting permission for an entirely new apostolate or mission.

ConstantineTG, You might explore something like doing Reader’s Vespers. I’ve been told it’s actually very common for there to be only a cantor in a village church for Vespers, maybe one or two of the faithful might also be present. I’m so used to the OCA where I often go for Vespers where they have a strong choir and maybe a ten to twenty lay folks, a fraction of the parish, it’s good to be reminded of how often only one or a small group are present for these in an Orthodox parish. The Greek Orthodox which I have plenty of experience with for Vespers also usually has a cantor or two, a priest and about eight to 15 people, a very small minority of the parish.

In my EC parish our deacon last year began having Reader’s Vespers Sat. afternoons after our work days, and Matins Sunday morning at 8:30AM before clergy prayers, prior to vesting prayers. Sometimes he is the only one there at these services. Sometimes one or two others are there, sometimes people walk in off the street and join in, especially Sat. afternoons during the Reader’s Vespers. Our goal as a parish is to get to the point where one of our priests is able to be available for Vespers but this isn’t feasible yet.

The ROCOR Cathedral here has begun offering DL in English once a month at 7:30AM, prior to the regular 9:45 DL in Slavonic. This is a strongly Russian parish. I’m often not able to find someone around me in Vespers and other services who can speak English. I’m impressed that they’ve decided to launch this monthly English language DL. It really is in English. The readings are repeated in Slavonic but basically the rest is English. A small beginning. I don’t know if they are considering eventually moving to doing this weekly, but for now they have made this much of a commitment.

 

[Diak]

it’s good to be reminded of how often only one or a small group are present for these in an Orthodox parish. The Greek Orthodox which I have plenty of experience with for Vespers also usually has a cantor or two, a priest and about eight to 15 people, a very small minority of the parish.

Nearly every parish that has Vespers and additional services outside of the Divine Liturgy has to cope with a very small minority supporting these services. We often, like many places, only have half a dozen to a dozen for regular Vespers. Even at Matins it starts out with only a couple but gradually grows (which is also the case in many Greek parishes that have Orthros) as it gets closer to the Liturgy.

But you develop a dedicated core that knows how to sing the services, and that is a cornerstone for invigorating the liturgical life of a parish.

Our Vespers (mostly in English) congregation is often comprised of a significant percentage of Latins who don’t have any celebration of the Divine Praises in their parishes and love to sing (and sing our polyphonic chant very well). I am overjoyed to have them.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Nearly every parish that has Vespers and additional services outside of the Divine Liturgy has to cope with a very small minority supporting these services. We often, like many places, only have half a dozen to a dozen for regular Vespers. Even at Matins it starts out with only a couple but gradually grows (which is also the case in many Greek parishes that have Orthros) as it gets closer to the Liturgy.

But you develop a dedicated core that knows how to sing the services, and that is a cornerstone for invigorating the liturgical life of a parish.

Our Vespers (mostly in English) congregation is often comprised of a significant percentage of Latins who don’t have any celebration of the Divine Praises in their parishes and love to sing (and sing our polyphonic chant very well). I am overjoyed to have them.

In contrast, on the rare occasion we do have Vepsers (usually on the eve of Great Feasts) it is usually me, the priest’s wife, and a couple of nuns.

 

[Diak]

“Wherever two or three are gathered…” The Greek Orthodox parish I used to go to when I was much younger often only had the priest, the psaltist, and one other person (me) at Orthros.

 

[ConstantineTG]

“Wherever two or three are gathered…” The Greek Orthodox parish I used to go to when I was much younger often only had the priest, the psaltist, and one other person (me) at Orthros.

I also had the pleasure at one time of being the only person in the nave with the bishop and two priests at the altar.

We’re a very small congregation with most people not showing up on weekdays. This is why I had this crazy idea of establishing another parish which would not be built on ethnicity. I got this idea from our local OCA parish which was established when some people decided to “secede” from the local Russian Orthodox Church.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

In contrast, on the rare occasion we do have Vepsers (usually on the eve of Great Feasts) it is usually me, the priest’s wife, and a couple of nuns.

There are often questions in Eastern Catholic circles as to whether attendance at Saturday Vespers would (or could) fulfill one’s Sunday obligation. Us Ruthenians still seem wedded to Vespers with Liturgy on Saturday evenings (the so-called “Vespergy”). I have heard different answers from different people, laity and clergy alike.

First, I’m curious as to Diak’s answer as regards the UGCC position.

Generally, I wonder if us Greek Catholics feel that attendance at Saturday Vespers (alone) would increase if it were the case that the Sunday obligation would be fulfilled.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There are often questions in Eastern Catholic circles as to whether attendance at Saturday Vespers would (or could) fulfill one’s Sunday obligation. Us Ruthenians still seem wedded to Vespers with Liturgy on Saturday evenings (the so-called “Vespergy”). I have heard different answers from different people, laity and clergy alike.

First, I’m curious as to Diak’s answer as regards the UGCC position.

Generally, I wonder if us Greek Catholics feel that attendance at Saturday Vespers (alone) would increase if it were the case that the Sunday obligation would be fulfilled.

That is the problem we have with being a small Church in the grander Catholic Church. They don’t want our schedule or type of service, there’s 2 or 3 Roman Catholic parishes less than 5 minutes drive away.

There must be a group of people committed to the faith. But often you will find such people outside the ethnic circle of the parish. If your parish is too ethnic, they will leave.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

That is the problem we have with being a small Church in the grander Catholic Church. They don’t want our schedule or type of service, there’s 2 or 3 Roman Catholic parishes less than 5 minutes drive away.

There must be a group of people committed to the faith. But often you will find such people outside the ethnic circle of the parish. If your parish is too ethnic, they will leave.

That’s a curious conclusion to ponder. If the “ethnics” leave, where would they go?

Maybe a bit different in your neck of the woods, but in the U.S., there is big competition for Sunday morning - Church vs. sports and other activities.

Many families end up going to the local RC church on Saturday evenings simply because they “cannot” go to their EC church on Sunday morning. Even if we had Vespers, they would not come if they didn’t think that it met the Sunday obligation. Could we not meet two objectives here by offering Vespers in accordance with common Orthodox praxis?

 

[Diak]

The particular law for the UGCC in the USA allows Vespers, Matins or the Divine Liturgy to satisfy the Sunday or festal “obligation” (Articles 170 and 460). So there is no longer any need for the Saturday evening Divine Liturgy or a “Vespergy”. I do not know if the BCCA adopted any of those provisions.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The particular law for the UGCC in the USA allows Vespers, Matins or the Divine Liturgy to satisfy the Sunday or festal “obligation” (Articles 170 and 460). So there is no longer any need for the Saturday evening Divine Liturgy or a “Vespergy”. I do not know if the BCCA adopted any of those provisions.

Thanks for your response, Diak!

I do not think the BCCA has caught up. In fact, you are likely aware that the RDL text / people’s book was rather intentionally structured to support the “Vespergy”. I do recall reading something awhile back, written by Fr. Petras, on the subject and rationale.

This was in the Cantors Comparion to the RDL people’s book:

Father David Petras’ Common Typicon contains the following recommendation:

“In some parishes, the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Saturday evening. I recommend, that whenever the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the evening, it be celebrated with the office of Vespers. This precedent is founded in Byzantine liturgical practice, as may be seen at the feasts of Pascha, Christmas, Theophany, and the Annunciation.”

The Common Typicon includes a proposed outline for a combined service of Vespers and the Divine Liturgy; the Divine Liturgies book provides this service as an option for those parishes which celebrate the Divine Liturgy in the evening, and refers to it as a Vigil Divine Liturgy.

(A full celebration of Vespers is the preferred option for an evening service on days other than those for which the Typicon actually directs that Vespers be celebrated with the Divine Liturgy.)

But I don’t think we’ve gone so far as the UGCC in our own particular law.

 

[Diak]

I disagree with taking the Vesperal Divine Liturgy outside of the very specific and exceptional liturgical circumstances for which it is provided - namely Holy Saturday (Vigil of Pascha), Holy Thursday, Christmas and Theophany and sometimes the Annunciation. These are unique times in the liturgical year and the Vesperal Divine Liturgy is appointed for well developed reasons, and not convienience. All of these fall within or conclude a fasting time, hence the development of attaching the Divine Liturgy with Vespers. It was never intended to be used on a regular Sunday. Three of these occasions (Holy Saturday, Christmas and Theophany) are also historical “baptismal feasts” for which the Vesperal Divine Liturgy was especially well suited to allow the Sacraments of Initiation at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy, and the newly illuminated could fully partake of the Divine Liturgy and feast the next day.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know we always blame the Latins for Latinizations, but the fact of the matter is today the greatest roadblock to ridding of Latinizations are the parishioners. That is why I say if they want it, let them have it. And for those who don’t want it, let them get rid of it. Both ways are valid as far as my very limited vision on the matter can see. Yes, you now has two streams of tradition, but that is always what it has been in the past. A certain group develops different traditions from the others. Even in the Latin Church we have the EF folk and the OF folk.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I disagree with taking the Vesperal Divine Liturgy outside of the very specific and exceptional liturgical circumstances for which it is provided - namely Holy Saturday (Vigil of Pascha), Holy Thursday, Christmas and Theophany and sometimes the Annunciation. These are unique times in the liturgical year and the Vesperal Divine Liturgy is appointed for well developed reasons, and not convienience. All of these fall within or conclude a fasting time, hence the development of attaching the Divine Liturgy with Vespers. It was never intended to be used on a regular Sunday. Three of these occasions (Holy Saturday, Christmas and Theophany) are also historical “baptismal feasts” for which the Vesperal Divine Liturgy was especially well suited to allow the Sacraments of Initiation at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy, and the newly illuminated could fully partake of the Divine Liturgy and feast the next day.

Thank you again, Diak! I think what you have expressed above is largely consistent with the general Orthodox view, as well.

We plan to have Saturday Vespers regularly at our parish, once we have a rectory rebuilt and ur priest is once again resident at our church. It will be interesting to hear what guidance he will give and how attendance might run.

Дуже дякую!

 

[Peter_J]

I’m wondering if something similar can be done with an Eastern Catholic Church, or has been done.

It sounds to me like the only thing more difficult than what you’re proposing would be to try and start an Ambrosian-Rite parish.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It sounds to me like the only thing more difficult than what you’re proposing would be to try and start an Ambrosian-Rite parish.

Or perhaps more challenging yet, to attempt to do so in the Ukraine

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, we will see. I’m always the kind of person to try anything. I will ask. There is no guarantee my request will be granted. If the bishop says “no”, then I figure this thing out from there.