Can we establish our own church/parish?

[Peter_J]

Or perhaps more challenging yet, to attempt to do so in the Ukraine

Heh heh. But seriously, I think it would be equally impossible to do so in Ukraine or North America: according to the rules laid down by the Council of Trent, the Ambrosian Rite cannot spread to any new regions. (Hopefully one of these days I’m going to meet a family who immigrated from Milan, and ask them how they feel about that – but now I’m getting pretty far off topic. )

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Heh heh. But seriously, I think it would be equally impossible to do so in Ukraine or North America: according to the rules laid down by the Council of Trent, the Ambrosian Rite cannot spread to any new regions.

Understood, but it did seem interesting to ponder how a Western rite church could be erected in a predominantly Eastern Christian country, where even the UGCC is significantly larger than the Roman Catholic presence.

 

[Peter_J]

To keep Constantine a Catholic

Oh you!

 

[JW55]

Do you think their are other people in your parish that feel the same as you?

Is the ethnic issue a factor in this parish with you? From some of your other posts I had the impression it wasn’t an issue with you at this parish and in some others I got the feeling maybe it did have some bearing.

If you went to the Orthodox Church you mention, would it eliminate some or your concerns or do you think they are also present there?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you think their are other people in your parish that feel the same as you?

Is the ethnic issue a factor in this parish with you? From some of your other posts I had the impression it wasn’t an issue with you at this parish and in some others I got the feeling maybe it did have some bearing.

For sure it is a big concern for me and my family. There could be other people who has issues with it. I know of someone in the past and they are not there anymore. There are some currently that I feel may have this issue as well, although it is mostly guessing for me right now. I do know that it is an issue to some that when we switch to one bilingual Liturgy over the summer, they either go to another parish or I don’t know where else they would go. So for sure a consistent English Liturgy would be appreciated by these small group of people.

If you went to the Orthodox Church you mention, would it eliminate some or your concerns or do you think they are also present there?

Certainly there is no ethnic bias in the OCA parish I visited. Even the person I spoke with is Ukrainian and he said he wouldn’t go to a Ukrainian parish because its too ethnic. He wants to go to a parish that focuses on Christ, not on ethnicity. And people come from various backgrounds, of ethnicity and faith. Also there are young families. I want a good community because I have seen in my cousin how effective it is to have your kids grow up with other kids in the same faith community. They are Evangelicals and her kids are faithful to their faith despite us living in a very secular society. In a parish where there are barely other people of our and our kids age group and are very ethinicty-centric towards a culture that we are totally foreign to, I have made up my mind in this regard that I am raising my kids to be atheists. They will be so disconnected to everyone else, they will give up at some point.

 

[Diak]

On the other hand, we have a couple of families from Central and Eastern Ukraine who came to us and are not at all “nationalistic”, speak Russian as much as Ukrainian, don’t mind some English, and were baptized Orthodox. The reason they came to us is because they tried the local Antiochian parish which is almost entirely populated by white American ex-Protestant converts, and the immigrant families found the parish to be xenophobic and essentially devoid of any distinct “culture”.

My kids certainly didn’t grow up to be atheists (my oldest son studied iconography at UCU in Ukraine, and my middle is going there next year) and the cultural and historical millieu of our UGCC parishes we have attended only strengthened their faith when instructed and catechized in the history of our Kyivan Church and people.

 

[ConstantineTG]

On the other hand, we have a couple of families from Central and Eastern Ukraine who came to us and are not at all “nationalistic”, speak Russian as much as Ukrainian, don’t mind some English, and were baptized Orthodox. The reason they came to us is because they tried the local Antiochian parish which is almost entirely populated by white American ex-Protestant converts, and the immigrant families found the parish to be xenophobic and essentially devoid of any distinct “culture”.

My kids certainly didn’t grow up to be atheists (my oldest son studied iconography at UCU in Ukraine, and my middle is going there next year) and the cultural and historical millieu of our UGCC parishes we have attended only strengthened their faith when instructed and catechized in the history of our Kyivan Church and people.

Well, our situations are different. I am basically an island in our parish. I mean, people are nice to me and all but I do not have close relationships with other people. I try but just can’t. People there are close to one another because they are all Ukrainian. I know how that feels, when we Filipinos see each other we gravitate to one another. It is human nature to be around people like you and ethnicity is one of the strongest bonds after family. I teach Catechism at our parish and so I am around the parents of the kids, most of whom are my age. Aside form being, “oh, he’s the teacher of my kids,” we really don’t have much in common.

It can be different from parish to parish, definitely. My parish is not your parish. What I saw in the OCA parish here is not guaranteed to be the same in another OCA parish. Every situation is different, and this is the situation I have here.

I want to try this idea of establishing a parish because I know there have been many interlopers like myself who are interested in Eastern spirituality but they don’t stick around because the parish is too Ukrainian. What really got me to stay this long is the presence of one family who are non-Ukrainians. But they are gone now. And another friend who is also non-Ukrainian is also leaving because he found work elsewhere. There have been a number of people in the short time I am with the Ukrainian Church that have gone through the parish. Nobody has stayed for long. If the Church is going to fulfill its mission to the world, it needs to shed this heavy emphasis on ethnicity in its parishes and make it a comfortable place for non-Ukrainians. Otherwise, the parishes will die. There are not that many parishes to begin with and you can’t count on the Ukrainian families to stay close to the parishes. Especially with the high cost of real estate, many will move to far away place to get cheaper housing, which means they will also move to a nearby RC parish rather than drive half-an-hour or so to church. And we can’t discount those who become secularized or convert into a non-Catholic faith.

 

[Diak]

Indeed every parish is different.

Our mission in the Phillipines served by the Eparchy in Australia is doing well, and that shows our Church shares the universal Gospel mandate for evangelization. We should be there for everyone while not forgetting where we came from. As I mentioned here, in the Midwest USA, we also have families who travel a long distance to be here, and a number of non-Ukrainians who love our church, respect us for our beautiful spiritual and liturgical tradition, and are happy and content to worship with us. But then again we are very much bi-lingual and have some services like Vespers and Matins with more English than Ukrainian.

If you are going to facilitate some English services, you will need to learn the music, get familiar with the texts, and be ready to do it. And as I said before, don’t be surprised if the Bishop says to first try an English liturgy at an existing parish to see what the response is before moving onward.

But there is nothing holding you back now from organizing people to pray together and even asking to have services when there is not one going on in the parish Church. The Akathist is easy to sing, for example.

I will caution that sometimes people who want to “do their own thing” are seen by the Bishop as people wanting their own church rather than working with the existing parishes and helping them to grow. So be careful, respectful, and mindful of the voice of the shepherd.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Indeed every parish is different.

Our mission in the Phillipines served by the Eparchy in Australia is doing well, and that shows our Church shares the universal Gospel mandate for evangelization. We should be there for everyone while not forgetting where we came from. As I mentioned here, in the Midwest USA, we also have families who travel a long distance to be here, and a number of non-Ukrainians who love our church, respect us for our beautiful spiritual and liturgical tradition, and are happy and content to worship with us. But then again we are very much bi-lingual and have some services like Vespers and Matins with more English than Ukrainian.

If you are going to facilitate some English services, you will need to learn the music, get familiar with the texts, and be ready to do it. And as I said before, don’t be surprised if the Bishop says to first try an English liturgy at an existing parish to see what the response is before moving onward.

But there is nothing holding you back now from organizing people to pray together and even asking to have services when there is not one going on in the parish Church. The Akathist is easy to sing, for example.

I will caution that sometimes people who want to “do their own thing” are seen by the Bishop as people wanting their own church rather than working with the existing parishes and helping them to grow. So be careful, respectful, and mindful of the voice of the shepherd.

Well, I know the music, even from the Anthology. Whether I do it well is another question

You have a mission in the Philippines? Where?

I will tell my bishop all my concerns and all my crazy ideas. I have proposed a lot of ideas for other things to him in the past. He has said yes to some and no to others. When he told me to drop the idea, I dropped it and never mentioned it to him or anyone in the parish ever again.

 

[Diak]

You’d have to ask Fr. Olexander Kenez, the chancellor for the Eparchy in Melbourne, where exactly they have the Liturgy. I know he flies up there every once in a while, and there is also an outreach in Singapore.

I will caution that sometimes people who want to “do their own thing” are seen by the Bishop as people wanting their own church rather than working with the existing parishes and helping them to grow. So be careful, respectful, and mindful of the voice of the shepherd.

I only mentioned that because I learned from experience of my own zeal in the past.

But yes, if you are going to organize and possibly lead services you really need to know the services and music. A service not sung or celebrated well will not be as attractive.

Well, I know the music, even from the Anthology.

So your parish does use some English? One would never have guessed that from all of your previous statements.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’d have to ask Fr. Olexander Kenez, the chancellor for the Eparchy in Melbourne, where exactly they have the Liturgy. I know he flies up there every once in a while, and there is also an outreach in Singapore.

Yes, I am in touch with him. I know he wanted to go since last year, but hasn’t received an invitation from the bishop or any group that can make it happen. I know he’s been to Hong Kong, but I haven’t heard that he’s been to the Philippines. I haven’t heard anything from the local Catholic groups on Facebook. Are you sure he’s been to the Philippines?

I only mentioned that because I learned from experience of my own zeal in the past.

But yes, if you are going to organize and possibly lead services you really need to know the services and music. A service not sung or celebrated well will not be as attractive.

I don’t know if my singing is attractive to begin with

So your parish does use some English? One would never have guessed that from all of your previous statements.

There is a regular English Liturgy but not in the summer. Also the Great Feasts (Pascha, Nativity, Holy Week services, etc.) are always bilingual. It is fairly common for us to merge the two services into a bilingual service.

It is not just the language of the service. But it is a good place to start to get people to stay, that there is a constant English service throughout the year including the Great Feasts.

 

[ConstantineTG]

By the way, when I talk about ethnicity it is not just about the language. I can be very Filipino and speak exclusively in English.

 

[Diak]

It is not just the language of the service.

I think I’m starting to see what’s on here.

I know he’s been to Hong Kong, but I haven’t heard that he’s been to the Philippines. I haven’t heard anything from the local Catholic groups on Facebook. Are you sure he’s been to the Philippines?

Sorry, I was indeed thinking of Hong Kong, for which they have had some Liturgies, and not the Phillipines. I do know Fr. Olexander is actively working on getting things going in the Phillipines and I get their Facebook notices.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

We should be there for everyone while not forgetting where we came from.

Well put, Diak!

perhaps a motto for Evangelization efforts of the Eastern Catholic Churches …

 

[Aramis]

The particular law for the UGCC in the USA allows Vespers, Matins or the Divine Liturgy to satisfy the Sunday or festal “obligation” (Articles 170 and 460). So there is no longer any need for the Saturday evening Divine Liturgy or a “Vespergy”. I do not know if the BCCA adopted any of those provisions.

the CCEO blanket enables legitimate custom for this - which said custom is legitimate. Not much followed in the Metropolia… but legitimate.

Canon 881

1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord’s day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.

No particular law entry for Canon 881 is in the 1999 promulgation of Ruthenian Particular Law for the Metropolia. (Note that RPL is non-consecutively numbered so that each canon is numbered to match to the CCEO canon with the same subject.)

In practice, pastors vary on the subject, and it seems left to the pastors.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

the CCEO blanket enables legitimate custom for this - which said custom is legitimate. Not much followed in the Metropolia… but legitimate. No particular law entry for Canon 881 is in the 1999 promulgation of Ruthenian Particular Law for the Metropolia. (Note that RPL is non-consecutively numbered so that each canon is numbered to match to the CCEO canon with the same subject.)

In practice, pastors vary on the subject, and it seems left to the pastors.

All basically true, but it is questionable as to whether it can be concluded that this remains a pastoral decision. The Metropolia spoke indirectly with the promulgation of the Revised Divine Liturgy, with the people’s book specifically designed to support celebration of Vespers with Divine Liturgy (so-called “Vespergy”) on Saturday evenings. This seems to indicate a trend toward tradition by including evening Vespers, with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy to offer opportunity to complete the Sunday obligation with a Eucharistic celebration.

The Metropolia published a “Cantor’s Companion” to the 2006 RDL people’s book, which includes a short chapter on the “Vigil Divine Liturgy”. It opens with a quote of Fr David Petras:

In some parishes, the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Saturday evening. I recommend, that whenever the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in the evening, it be celebrated with the office of Vespers. This precedent is founded in Byzantine liturgical practice, as may be seen at the feasts of Pascha, Christmas, Theophany, and the Annunciation.

The Cantor’s Companion is considered an “official publication” of the Council of Hierarchs, so at the least a bias for this form was clearly expressed.

It would be nice if the Ruthenian Church spoke with more clarity on this point, as other Eastern Catholic Churches have done.

 

[ByzKat]

I think it’s only fair to note what this “bias” is.

IF the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Saturday evening and the eves of the feasts (as has been done since at least the 1960’s), then is it better that it be preceded by Vespers, rather than being celebrated as it would be in the morning.

We have parishes that only have one service, in the evening, generally because the pastor or administrator is serving several parishes or missions. We have other parishes with a long-standing tradition of an evening Divine Liturgy, and pastoral reasons for not changing the practice. Father David has said that his recommendation was made with these situations in might, and with the hope that increased familiarity with the order of vespers (and more vocations) we would be in a position to have a full cycle of services in all our parishes.

Jeff

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I think it’s only fair to note what this “bias” is.

IF the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Saturday evening and the eves of the feasts (as has been done since at least the 1960’s), then is it better that it be preceded by Vespers, rather than being celebrated as it would be in the morning.

We have parishes that only have one service, in the evening, generally because the pastor or administrator is serving several parishes or missions. We have other parishes with a long-standing tradition of an evening Divine Liturgy, and pastoral reasons for not changing the practice. Father David has said that his recommendation was made with these situations in might, and with the hope that increased familiarity with the order of vespers (and more vocations) we would be in a position to have a full cycle of services in all our parishes.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff, for the additional context. The only “orthodox” question that remains is whether attendance at Saturday Vespers alone would fufill a Sunday obligation for a practicing Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic (the real question at hand). Our particular law appears silent on the point. Any wisdom on this?

We are planning to have regular Saturday Vespers (alone and apart) in the future at our parish, but it may take awhile yet before this is possible. I have thus not posed the question to my own pastor, as yet.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks, Jeff, for the additional context. The only “orthodox” question that remains is whether attendance at Saturday Vespers alone would fufill a Sunday obligation for a practicing Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic (the real question at hand). Our particular law appears silent on the point. Any wisdom on this?

That’s a good question, and unfortunately I don’t know the answer.

Another thought: even if it does fulfill the obligation for Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics, it wouldn’t for parishioners who are canonically Latin, right? (That’s my impression anyhow.) That might be another reason for having vigil-liturgy.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

That’s a good question, and unfortunately I don’t know the answer.

Another thought: even if it does fulfill the obligation for Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics, it wouldn’t for parishioners who are canonically Latin, right? (That’s my impression anyhow.) That might be another reason for having vigil-liturgy.

Nor do I, despite trying to address it a few times through reliable channels.

That said, I would find it very hard to believe that we would be offering Vigil DL on Saturdays in order to meet the needs of the canonically Latin among us. I do think many, including “cradles”, would still tend to think that attendance at DL is necessary to fulfill one’s Sunday obligation, as that is what has been instilled in our upbringing.

I do applaud the effort to bring Vespers back into practice. I spent a few brief years in the Eparchy of Parma where Vespers with DL on Saturday was commonplace, and I enjoyed it very much. It was my first true exposure to Vespers (other than for major feasts, of course). Perhaps this is just a measured way of moving toward a more complete cycle of worship, short of taking the full step of restoring Orthodox practice. We can only guess, absent formal guidance.