Can we establish our own church/parish?

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Thanks, Jeff, for the additional context. The only “orthodox” question that remains is whether attendance at Saturday Vespers alone would fufill a Sunday obligation for a practicing Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic (the real question at hand). Our particular law appears silent on the point. Any wisdom on this?
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I would still disagree that the “only” orthodox" question is that of obligation. It is somewhat misleading to argue that simply because a Vesperal Divine Liturgy is appointed for very specific feast days that this provides a “precedent” to liberalize the usage over the rest of the year when there is no historical nor liturgical basis for the wider celebration of that very particular service, which is ONLY served within very specific liturgical, seasonal, and catechetical boundaries.

Introducing yet another syncretism (“Vespergy”) is not helpful, a neo-latinization (i.e. facilitating an existing latinization), and is yet something else that has to eventually be weaned from. Institute Vespers, wean off of Saturday evening Liturgy, and be done with it. In the end, you are still having Divine Liturgy on Saturday evening but covering it with a bit of Vespers to “look more Eastern”. As regards to the “familiarity with Vespers” argument I am still unconvinced that doing half of a service, truncated and amended, makes anyone that much more familiar as when the whole service is celebrated much of it will still be unfamiliar.

The provisions in the UGCC particular law have been of great use to me in catechizing the people - when they ask about “obligation” you can go right to the source of our UGCC particular law with specific citation and expound on that. We have a ways to go, but at least having the “canonical” road cleared is of great assistance in reassuring those worried about “obligation”.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I’ve read the history of our local OCA parish here and it is interesting how they came to be. They started as members of the local Russian Orthodox Church but because they wanted services in English, they asked the bishop if they can establish their own parish for english services. The bishop agreed and at the beginning** they did reader services for lack of clergy.** Eventually they got a wonderful priest and they built a church under the OCA.

I’m wondering if something similar can be done with an Eastern Catholic Church, or has been done.
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Would you really be willing to forego the sacrificial Divine Liturgy for any length of time if one was available?
 
ConstantineTG said:
For sure it is a big concern for me and my family. There could be other people who has issues with it. I know of someone in the past and they are not there anymore. There are some currently that I feel may have this issue as well, although it is mostly guessing for me right now. I do know that it is an issue to some that when we switch to one bilingual Liturgy over the summer, they either go to another parish or I don’t know where else they would go. So for sure a consistent English Liturgy would be appreciated by these small group of people.

Certainly there is no ethnic bias in the OCA parish I visited. Even the person I spoke with is Ukrainian and he said he wouldn’t go to a Ukrainian parish because its too ethnic. He wants to go to a parish that focuses on Christ, not on ethnicity. And people come from various backgrounds, of ethnicity and faith. Also there are young families. I want a good community because I have seen in my cousin how effective it is to have your kids grow up with other kids in the same faith community. They are Evangelicals and her kids are faithful to their faith despite us living in a very secular society. In a parish where there are barely other people of our and our kids age group and are very ethinicty-centric towards a culture that we are totally foreign to, I have made up my mind in this regard that I am raising my kids to be atheists. They will be so disconnected to everyone else, they will give up at some point.
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Move to California and come to my parish! We’d love to have you.

When I was a child (early 70s), my family was the only non-ethnic family in the parish. We were a mixture of Ruthenians, Ukrainians and Slovaks. The parishioners didn’t quite know what to make of us. We were welcomed, but there was always an element of “why are you here?” There were two liturgies then, one in English and one in Slavonic. The parish split at one point when a Ukrainian parish was established nearby. It really hurt the parish and we were down to very few people. The ethnic identity clearly was not going to work. I was gone from the parish for a number of years, and I returned to a parish with approximately 8 people (give or take, depending on the week). Praise God, we have grown from that point. We still need more people and we are so scattered geographically that it is difficult to have any community outside of Sunday, but we now have a very diverse parish. We’re about 30% ethnic, 50% cradle Roman, a small number of cradle Orthodox married to Catholics, and a few converts directly into the Ruthenian church. Its a good mix. We love the Slavic traditions of our church and are grateful for for the ethnics to help us keep them alive, but we are not really a Slavic church. A visitor would certainly not feel like he or she doesn’t belong.

We’re still a small parish. Attendance on Sunday is usually around 50 and approximately 20 of those are children under 10. It does mean a lot to our children to be building those positive relationships with other children at church and I can certainly understand your desire to have that for your children.

Do you think that you can find enough like-minded families? I think that is key. If you can find 25 or so families who are interested, I believe you can start a mission. Can you convince your priest to have a Divine Liturgy in English for a group of people if you can get them together? Maybe that is a good place to start.

By the way, the Ukrainian parish that split off from our parish is thriving, but they still very ethnic. There is current immigration from Ukraine, which is where many of their numbers come from. Their priest doesn’t even speak English. There is another Ukrainian mission that is more or less a spin-off from that parish (the priest is a former parishioner) that is entirely non-ethnic.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Sacrificial Divine Liturgy? 🤷
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Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

Proskomedia

PRIEST: Lord, stretch forth your hand from the height of your holy dwelling-place, and strengthen me for the service I am about to offer you that I may stand before your awesome altar without condemnation and perform the unbloody sacrifice. For yours is the power forever. Amen. (p. 16)
…

Second prosphora.
The priest then takes the second prosphora in his hand, saying: PRIEST: In honor and memory of our most blessed Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, through whose prayers, O Lord, accept this sacrifice upon your heavenly altar. (p. 23)

FIRST PRAYER OF THE FAITHFUL

CELEBRANT AND CONCELEBRANTS: We thank you, O Lord God of Powers, for having made us worthy to stand at this time before your holy altar and to prostrate ourselves before your mercy for our sins and for the people’s failings. Accept our prayer, O God, and make us worthy to offer you prayers and supplications and unbloody sacrifices for all your people. (p. 53)
…

PRAYER OF THE CHERUBIKON
(Only the celebrant elevates his hands.)

CELEBRANT AND CONCELEBRANTS: No one who is bound by carnal desires and pleasures is worthy to come to you, to approach you, or to minister to you, the King of Glory. For to minister to you is great and awesome even to the heavenly powers themselves. Yet, because of your ineffable and immeasurable love for all of us, you, unchanged and unchangeable, became man, were designated our high priest, and, as Master of all, entrusted us with the priestly service of this liturgical, unbloody sacrifice. (p. 54-55)
…
CELEBRANT: In your goodness, O Lord, show favor to Zion; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Then you will be pleased with lawful sacrifice, burnt offerings wholly consumed; then you will be offered young bulls on your altar. [from Psalm 50/51] (p. 57)
…
CELEBRANT: Lord God Almighty, who alone are holy and receive the sacrifice of praise from those who call upon you with their whole heart, accept also the prayer of us sinners. Bring us to your holy altar. Enable us to offer you gifts and spiritual sacrifices for our sins and for the people’s failings. Make us worthy to find favor in your sight that our sacrifice may be pleasing to you and that the good Spirit of your grace may rest on us, on these gifts here present, and on all your people. (p. 59)
…

Anaphora

DEACON: Let us stand aright; let us stand in awe; let us be attentive to offer the holy Anaphora in peace.
RESPONSE: Mercy peace, a sacrifice of praise. (p. 61)
…
CELEBRANT: Moreover, we offer to you this spiritual and unbloody sacrifice; and we implore, pray, and entreat you: send down your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts lying before us. (p. 65)
…
CELEBRANT: Moreover, we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those departed in faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every just spirit brought to perfection in faith. Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever- Virgin Mary. (p. 66)

After the Anaphora

CELEBRANT: We further offer you this spiritual sacrifice for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church; for those who live in purity and holiness; for our government and all in the service of our country. Let them govern in peace, O Lord, that in their tranquility we may lead a calm and quiet life in all piety and holiness. (p. 67)
 
Not to deny any sacrificial elements within the Divine Liturgy, but I’ve never heard the Divine Liturgy as a whole referred to somethign as “Sacrificial”.
 
babochka said:
Move to California and come to my parish! We’d love to have you.

When I was a child (early 70s), my family was the only non-ethnic family in the parish. We were a mixture of Ruthenians, Ukrainians and Slovaks. The parishioners didn’t quite know what to make of us. We were welcomed, but there was always an element of “why are you here?” There were two liturgies then, one in English and one in Slavonic. The parish split at one point when a Ukrainian parish was established nearby. It really hurt the parish and we were down to very few people. The ethnic identity clearly was not going to work. I was gone from the parish for a number of years, and I returned to a parish with approximately 8 people (give or take, depending on the week). Praise God, we have grown from that point. We still need more people and we are so scattered geographically that it is difficult to have any community outside of Sunday, but we now have a very diverse parish. We’re about 30% ethnic, 50% cradle Roman, a small number of cradle Orthodox married to Catholics, and a few converts directly into the Ruthenian church. Its a good mix. We love the Slavic traditions of our church and are grateful for for the ethnics to help us keep them alive, but we are not really a Slavic church. A visitor would certainly not feel like he or she doesn’t belong.

We’re still a small parish. Attendance on Sunday is usually around 50 and approximately 20 of those are children under 10. It does mean a lot to our children to be building those positive relationships with other children at church and I can certainly understand your desire to have that for your children.

Do you think that you can find enough like-minded families? I think that is key. If you can find 25 or so families who are interested, I believe you can start a mission. Can you convince your priest to have a Divine Liturgy in English for a group of people if you can get them together? Maybe that is a good place to start.

By the way, the Ukrainian parish that split off from our parish is thriving, but they still very ethnic. There is current immigration from Ukraine, which is where many of their numbers come from. Their priest doesn’t even speak English. There is another Ukrainian mission that is more or less a spin-off from that parish (the priest is a former parishioner) that is entirely non-ethnic.
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Thanks! Well, in terms of parishes I’m sure there are a lot of places which would suit me better. I bet your parish is one of the, no doubt. But yesterday I was in another town and went to Divine Liturgy at the local UGCC parish and had another stark reminder of my own dilema. His Beatitude the Patriarch is coming for a visit in a month and the priest was talking about (paraphrasing here a bit) “Ukrainian pride”. And how “this is our Church, this is our culture. WE’RE UKRAINIANS!” Obviously he’s trying to get the local parishioners excited about this historic and significant visit. But way to alienate the non-Ukrainians in the crowd. Namely me and another fellow who looks to be Asian.

I’m sure the priest isn’t trying to kick me out or anything, I know him personally and he’s a great person and a great priest. Very passionate priest, I might add. And I’m sure he just spoke from his heart like he always does, and I am reminded by it of the cold, hard truth.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Not to deny any sacrificial elements within the Divine Liturgy, but I’ve never heard the Divine Liturgy as a whole referred to somethign as “Sacrificial”.
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Latin eucharistia, the virtue of thanksgiving or thankfulness; from Greek eucharistia, gratitude; from eu-, good + charizesthai, to show favor. - (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

I have read the literal phrase “liturgical sacrifice” in the GOA Liturgy of St. John Cyrysostom and in their materials on the Divine Liturgy. Also Syriac Holy Qurbono (Holy Qurbana) has meanings: “like offering, gift, oblation, sacrifice, presents etc. The word took its origin from the syriac word ‘Kurbono’.”

bsmcathedral.org/Holy_Qurbono.html

CCC 1330 is on the eucharist, called: The *memorial *of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection. The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used, Heb 13:15; cf. 1 Pet 25; Ps 116:13, 17; Mal 1:11] since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.
There we see the terminologies included from the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and other eastern liturgies.
 
babochka said:
Our Slovak priest has mentioned that Ukrainians are very nationalistic, where ever they happen to be.
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Is your priest a true Slovak, or a Rusyn whose village happened to be included in the politcal borders of modern day Slovakia? If a Rusyn, since Rusyns are really just Ukrainians according to some, might he be calling himself nationalistic? :hypno:
 
Hesychios said:
I found the same annoying tendency among Ukrainian Orthodox, and among the Serbs.
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Indeed. Even the Ukrainian fellow I met in the OCA parish told me as much. I related the story earlier, I forgot which thread. But it is disconcerting when a Ukrainian tells you he doesn’t attend a Ukrainian Church because it is too ethnic.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Not to deny any sacrificial elements within the Divine Liturgy, but I’ve never heard the Divine Liturgy as a whole referred to somethign as “Sacrificial”.
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The Divine Liturgies are Catholic Sacrificial Liturgies…

They are not merely communion services like a Typica Service with Holy Communion.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Indeed. Even the Ukrainian fellow I met in the OCA parish told me as much. I related the story earlier, I forgot which thread. But it is disconcerting when a Ukrainian tells you he doesn’t attend a Ukrainian Church because it is too ethnic.
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I mentioned this on a thread somewhere before, but the nearest OCA parish to me is actually Greek!

They left a big local Greek Orthodox parish because it was too ethnic, and asked the OCA to take them in. They bought an old mission parish building from the Roman Catholic archdiocese (by coincidence it happens to be the one I went to as a kid) and organized a new OCA parish 20 years ago. The first half of the liturgy still reflects Greek practice, rather than Russian, according to what the priest told me (I am not exactly sure what he meant).

I still think you should talk to the Slovak Catholic bishop if you want to start a mission and stay with the Pope.
 
Exorcist said:
Would you really be willing for forego a Catholic sacrificial liturgy (such at the Divine Liturgy) for a non-sacrificial liturgy (such as a “reader’s service”?)
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It depends on how the Mission Parish would start out. Since there are priests in the area I doubt we’d go a week without Divine Liturgy. But then if there are no priests available then it is up to the individual to go seek a Liturgy they can attend, be it Roman or whatever. The reader’s services are for all the other Liturgical services where you don’t expect a priest to be there because they don’t do it right now. Vespers, Matins, even daily Typica (with no Communion. It would be contrary to tradition to have non-ordained people handling the Sacred Vessels and the Eucharist).
 
ConstantineTG said:
It depends on how the Mission Parish would start out. Since there are priests in the area I doubt we’d go a week without Divine Liturgy. But then if there are no priests available then it is up to the individual to go seek a Liturgy they can attend, be it Roman or whatever. The reader’s services are for all the other Liturgical services where you don’t expect a priest to be there because they don’t do it right now. Vespers, Matins, even daily Typica (with no Communion.** It would be contrary to tradition to have non-ordained people handling the Sacred Vessels and the Eucharist**).
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That would depend on the rite/church. In the Byzantine/Ruthenian Church in the USA, it is formally permissible for a non-ordained person to distribute Holy Communion if there is a genuine need based on documented instruction from the Church.
 
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