Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[ProVobis]

It’s an interesting theory that people don’t sing because there is no obligation to do so. (Presumably though there are other aspects of the mass like sharing the peace that are not an obligation, but people still do it?)

That isn’t exactly the hypothesis I posited, but I’m not going to fault you for putting it that way for argument’s sake.

I haven’t read the book but is there a part which says that in tough economies music is the first program they seem to cut in most schools? What does that say about our culture’s priorities? Do you remember the backlash when MUSAK, which was supposed to create a soothing atmosphere, was piped into elevators and shopping malls? And even “beautiful” Christmas music can’t be tolerated after a while, it seems, which is probably why they don’t play it in stores on the days after Christmas.

The Mass is obligatory; we don’t have a choice there. That’s enough. Why do you want to “torture” them any more with stuff many don’t really need or what to do? That’s not to say people don’t want to sing; some will, and you’ve demonstrated certain cultures will do so robustly. I don’t doubt that there are cultures who will dance when you tell them to or offer it to them as well (dancing is scriptural too, by the way) but the Church hasn’t gone so far to make that an obligation either fortunately.

 

[Sarabande]

You ask why the Church let Herself fall from the level of unmatched beauty it once had.

It’s because in many parishes, the “good” musicians have left because they disagree with Catholic teachings on homosexuality, abortion, extra-marital sex, co-habitation, and contraception, but especially homosexuality.

Didn’t anyone on this forum think it was strange that I can only list four “professional” musicians out of a parish of over 7000 people? FOUR musicians out of 7000 people?!!! Did you get that?! Did that register with anyone?!!

I’m not going to deny or disregard what has happened in your particular area, but I think that is not the main reason why the quality of church music has gone the wayside. The reason why I don’t believe that, because as someone who has worked with musicians in many states, dioceses and countries (and I agree that there are many homosexual male musicians - especially singers and organists) in both the secular and church realms, many of my gay and/or liberal colleagues understand what the Catholic Church and other churches/synogogues teach. They understand the consequences. Most do not let anyone know of their sexuality, although, for a lot of them it is pretty obvious. I’ve spoken to some of them regarding what had happened in your diocese and they actually thought it was stupid and ridiculous that the musicians there acted like that. Some felt sorry for the guy, but at the same time they said that he knew the rules and he should have accepted it. The only times I’ve seen a “boycott” of a particular church was when a colleague pushed another one out of their position, which I’ve seen all too often by those who are hungry for work and will do whatever they can to get a job. The other musicians won’t substitute or have anything to do with the church (doesn’t matter of denomination) out of principal in order to show that it’s not right to do ethically-speaking.

I think in most areas, the main reason has more to do with what you brought up in one of your continued posts… the pay/salary. In my area, there are wealthier parishes in more “artsy” communities where they view good, quality music and professional musicians important, so they put money out for it. Catholic musicians such as myself flock to places because we like to work in a Catholic parishes if we can. Basically, these musicians, will be in the Catholic churches if they are paid a decent wage… if not full-time, at least a part time position which is what mine is. I currently have two Catholic church positions. Most of my practicing Catholic musician colleagues (instrumentalists and singers) work in the mainstream Protestant churches. They do a lot of music using classical sacred repertoire in religions such as Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Methodist. They are more “high-church” congregations. My colleagues still attend mass, but some have families they need to support and can’t live on most music director salaries from Catholic parishes.

Also, the other reason is that many pastors/priests didn’t want that music in the parishes and in the 70s and 80s the push to have the folksy masses pushed the organists and other classically-trained musicians out. And the loss of musical education (another thing you brought up) has truly hurt us. So, we lost a couple generations of potential musicians for our Church. They never heard it at mass and when they did, it was often times pretty bad… who would want to do that kind of music and instrumentation when all you hear are poor technicians? I can understand why some people don’t like the sound of an organ when they never heard a real organist play one. I’ve seen the same people be converted when they have heard the organ played as it should.

So, we are at a point where more people are wanting this music again at mass, but we have a hole in our talent pool and some thinking that they can get it for nothing or that the talent pool will miraculously appear. I’m agreement with you in regards to the lack of music education and to put the money where our mouths are if we really do want quality musicians and music. These musicians have to pay for their lessons in order give quality, after all. And if we do that, it may encourage more support of quality music programs and music liturgies and maybe even more singing from the congregations.

 

[TrueLight]

I also believe singing or not singing is cultural.

As a black woman, I have always sung and so have people in the churches I attended. We sing to the radio and we sing in church.

No, everyone does not sound amazing, but everyone sings enthusiastically. There were also quite a number of natural talents in my church. So yes, you can sing well without taking voice lessons although of course voice lessons are totally worth it, which I do take regularly.

One can learn to sing without taking voice lessons because the more you practice, the better you get. If you listen to others and try to blend, eventually you become better.

Obviously one can know how to sing but have to learn to sing different styles, like Gregorian Chant. If you can follow a tune, you may not have an “authentic” chant sound without training, but you won’t sound horrible. That is sufficient for congregational singing.

I sing with a choir that sings a lot of classical pieces and every year new people join who totally don’t blend and have pop sounds, and just by listening to those around them, in time their sound changes.

So if culturally, people don’t sing, then they don’t practice. It’s a chicken or the egg issue.

 

[Eugenius]

I went to check the link and discovered that “Sing Like a Catholic” is available as a free, downloadable PDF.

scribd.com/doc/12699133/Sing-Like-a-Catholic

 

[Sarabande]

I also believe singing or not singing is cultural.

As a black woman, I have always sung and so have people in the churches I attended. We sing to the radio and we sing in church.

No, everyone does not sound amazing, but everyone sings enthusiastically. There were also quite a number of natural talents in my church. So yes, you can sing well without taking voice lessons although of course voice lessons are totally worth it, which I do take regularly.

One can learn to sing without taking voice lessons because the more you practice, the better you get. If you listen to others and try to blend, eventually you become better.

Obviously one can know how to sing but have to learn to sing different styles, like Gregorian Chant. If you can follow a tune, you may not have an “authentic” chant sound without training, but you won’t sound horrible. That is sufficient for congregational singing.

I sing with a choir that sings a lot of classical pieces and every year new people join who totally don’t blend and have pop sounds, and just by listening to those around them, in time their sound changes.

So if culturally, people don’t sing, then they don’t practice. It’s a chicken or the egg issue.

I do agree with you. Just join a choir of volunteers, most of which have never had any formal training and if they do work hard, they can have pleasant-enough voices. Usually not cantor-worthy or soloist-worthy, but in a choir which blends well, it can sound lovely. I recently was a ringer for a church choir which was made up of professionals, children (they sang with the sopranos and altos) and then members of the parish. They did all traditional Anglican and Catholic choral and hymn music. The children (boys and girls) had lovely, real voices (none of this chest singing that you hear so many kids do) and the parish members did have some lovely voices… and could sight read music.

But that is a difference between a Protestant music program and a Catholic one. Many of the mainstream ones do have an emphasis of teaching music from an early age, so as children they learn. That can be considered a cultural thing. BUT, this used to be the case in the Catholic church many moons ago. It may not have necessarily been for hymnody, but for the choral music it was. Although, I know that in the last century it could be hit or miss depending on parish. I know people who attended schools/parishes with incredible music programs. Everyone learned how to read music, usually had a music nun that taught them piano and organ and the kids would draw straws to get to practice on the organ after school and children’s choirs which could sing 4-part harmony. Then you had other parishes which didn’t have any of that. Now, today, it can be a struggle. You need people who are determined, naturally positive, aren’t naysayers and have talent and ability to bring it about. Being realistic and practical is good to a point which they should have, but at the same time, the overly realistic and practical ones were hardly ever the people who brought about change and new beginnings. Sometimes, they end up bringing about failure because they can’t see past their practicality and realism. You want the positive, idealistic and energized people to do it. They never give up and are constantly imagining and creating new ways to make things work and happen. It just has to be one person and then the support of the pastor and the parish. Maybe that’s why younger people tend to be successful at doing things like this… they haven’t been jaded yet. Fortunately, some never are jaded, which is a total blessing to all of us.

 

[MattWagner]

I believe singing is a very personal quality that very few are actually comfortable with. I’m in 3 choirs at my college, but am still very uncomfortable with singing in front of people on the spot, or if no one else is singing. It’s a part of mass that I love, and now participate in (given my parents aren’t around to hear!), but it really depends on the person.

 

[Cat]

I believe singing is a very personal quality that very few are actually comfortable with. I’m in 3 choirs at my college, but am still very uncomfortable with singing in front of people on the spot, or if no one else is singing. It’s a part of mass that I love, and now participate in (given my parents aren’t around to hear!), but it really depends on the person.

I’m not sure if, when you say, “singing in front of people,” you are referring to cantoring or not.

I can certainly understand why people do not wish to cantor. I can sing decently, but I definitely don’t want to cantor, and wouldn’t cantor unless Father actually asked me to straight out, and even then, I would search the assembled for a known cantor! I think that many pianists feel the same way I do–we don’t sing, we play for others to sing.

But singing with the congregation (corporate singing)–do you think that is something that people feel uncomfortable with? If so, why? And what can be done to change this?

 

[Denise1957]

I also believe singing or not singing is cultural.

As a black woman, I have always sung and so have people in the churches I attended. We sing to the radio and we sing in church.

No, everyone does not sound amazing, but everyone sings enthusiastically. There were also quite a number of natural talents in my church. So yes, you can sing well without taking voice lessons although of course voice lessons are totally worth it, which I do take regularly.

One can learn to sing without taking voice lessons because the more you practice, the better you get. If you listen to others and try to blend, eventually you become better.

Obviously one can know how to sing but have to learn to sing different styles, like Gregorian Chant. If you can follow a tune, you may not have an “authentic” chant sound without training, but you won’t sound horrible. That is sufficient for congregational singing.

I sing with a choir that sings a lot of classical pieces and every year new people join who totally don’t blend and have pop sounds, and just by listening to those around them, in time their sound changes.

So if culturally, people don’t sing, then they don’t practice. It’s a chicken or the egg issue.

You are right about learning to sing without taking voice lessons. I agree that if culturally people don’t sing, they don’t practice. At our Mass (EF) I’m one of the few people who actually looks at the red songbook and tries to sing along. It’s a little embarrasing to be the only one in my area of the pews to be singing most of the time!

Incidently, have you looked at a blog called Dymphna’s Road? She’s a traditional Catholic with your type of background. She sometines talks about her grandmother’s singing of gospel songs when she was growing up. It’s one of my favorite blogs.

 

[Phemie]

I also believe singing or not singing is cultural.

As a black woman, I have always sung and so have people in the churches I attended. We sing to the radio and we sing in church.

I agree.

As I’ve said elsewhere, in my area of Canada nobody but the choir ever sang in Catholic churches before Vatican II and nobody but the altar server gave responses. It was a shock to be told

1. that you were expected to respond out loud, and
2. that you were now expected to sing.

Of course it should be said that not every parish expected or wanted the PIP to sing. My home parish has never had so much as an Order of Service with the music listed, and they certainly don’t have hymnals. The PIP are expected to listen to the SATB choir and unless you are a visitor with a perfect voice you are not welcome to open your mouth. People take that to other parishes where they may settle.

Obviously it’s not that way in all parishes around home, but it’s what I’ve encountered in many. So to be in a parish where there were hymnals in every pew and everyone was expected to sing was a novelty when I moved away and it took me some years before I was comfortable with it.

 

[TrueLight]

You are right about learning to sing without taking voice lessons. I agree that if culturally people don’t sing, they don’t practice. At our Mass (EF) I’m one of the few people who actually looks at the red songbook and tries to sing along. It’s a little embarrasing to be the only one in my area of the pews to be singing most of the time!

Incidently, have you looked at a blog called Dymphna’s Road? She’s a traditional Catholic with your type of background. She sometines talks about her grandmother’s singing of gospel songs when she was growing up. It’s one of my favorite blogs.

No, I haven’t. I’ll check it out. Thanks!

I agree.

Of course it should be said that not every parish expected or wanted the PIP to sing. My home parish has never had so much as an Order of Service with the music listed, and they certainly don’t have hymnals.

I am so thankful for the hymnals. I still don’t know *Salve Regina *by heart, but I do know it is number 547 in the Adoremus hymnal, so I quickly flip to it during the recession and sing enthusiastically, LOL.

 

[liturgyluver]

Thank you for being forthright and asking! I will be eagerly awaiting what people have to say.

I’m guessing that the majority of people will chuckle and say, “Ohhh, I can’t sing. I just like to listen.”

And that doesn’t bother me at all. I know that a lot of people are very self-conscious about singing in front of others, and IMO, that’s actually an understandable attitude. Singing involves using body parts like our diaphragms, our tongues, and our lips right in public, in front of other people! No wonder people are self-conscious!

And I don’t have a problem with people not singing as long as they are engaged and listening actively with rapt attention and obvious enjoyment or concentration. What I have problems with are the people who are OBVIOUSLY sooooooo bored out of their gourds by the music and who OBVIOUSLY wish that the hymn would just go away now because they’re so disgusted with it.

Well, I went to church twice yesterday - at 9am to the said mass so I could concentrate and make my communion properly, and agan at 10.30 to observe what was happening with the hymn singing. I don’t want to repeat what has already been said, but I would say that barely 10% of people sang: there was a mixture of some just not picking up the hymnals, others peering into the hymnals as if engaging with it might give them the plague, and a small minority who seemed to be genuinely contemplative. There was a mixture of modern (I the Lord of see and sky, and traditional (Love Divine All Loves excelling, All people that on earth dwell and one of my favouries All Hail the power of Jesus Name) I noticed that in general more people sang the entrance hymn, than the others.

At tea, I decided to approach several people and ask them in a friendly way why people did not sing: These are the responses I received, after speaking to about 25 people:

• We have a great choir (my note - they don’t!), and I think people leave the singing to them
• Several people said they think people get embarrassed.

BUT what I found startling was that most people seemed to be in a state of denial> They said things like : People do sing. When I asked them if they sing, they said sometimes.

It’s very strange and I am none the wiser: I didn’t encounter any theological objection to hymn singing (and nobody mentioned that the majority of hymns that Sunday were by Protestant authors), for some reason people simply seem to opt out and I feel very sad.

 

[mariyka]

BUT what I found startling was that most people seemed to be in a state of denial> They said things like : People do sing. When I asked them if they sing, they said sometimes.

It’s very strange and I am none the wiser: I didn’t encounter any theological objection to hymn singing (and nobody mentioned that the majority of hymns that Sunday were by Protestant authors), for some reason people simply seem to opt out and I feel very sad.

That’s an interesting discovery. Could it be because they don’t know what congregational singing sounds like? I know my husband (Latin Rite) was stunned when he attended the Ukrainian Catholic Church the first time because just about everyone vocalizes there, and in harmony. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t sing with me at Mass. He said the nuns told him to keep quiet when he was growing up because he had a bad voice. His voice is fine.

I too am none the wiser.

(I’ve wondered if forming a “cool” young peoples’ choir, that does fun things together, learns the great music and sings regularly, would help. Once they were on their own, they would then join the general congregation, but they would keep singing.)

 

[liturgyluver]

That’s an interesting discovery. Could it be because they don’t know what congregational singing sounds like? I know my husband (Latin Rite) was stunned when he attended the Ukrainian Catholic Church the first time because just about everyone vocalizes there, and in harmony. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t sing with me at Mass. He said the nuns told him to keep quiet when he was growing up because he had a bad voice. His voice is fine.

I too am none the wiser.

(I’ve wondered if forming a “cool” young peoples’ choir, that does fun things together, learns the great music and sings regularly, would help. Once they were on their own, they would then join the general congregation, but they would keep singing.)

I think you could be right Mariyka. What’s interesting is that I went to Choral Evensong at the Anglican Church last Sunday, where one of the same hymns - All Hail the Power of Jesus name - was sung with such strength and power with a small congregation of only about 25. Perhaps the English choral tradition in Anglicanism is seen as tradition to uphold and is valued in these churches?

 

[Cat]

Well, I went to church twice yesterday - at 9am to the said mass so I could concentrate and make my communion properly, and agan at 10.30 to observe what was happening with the hymn singing. I don’t want to repeat what has already been said, but I would say that barely 10% of people sang: there was a mixture of some just not picking up the hymnals, others peering into the hymnals as if engaging with it might give them the plague, and a small minority who seemed to be genuinely contemplative. There was a mixture of modern (I the Lord of see and sky, and traditional (Love Divine All Loves excelling, All people that on earth dwell and one of my favouries All Hail the power of Jesus Name) I noticed that in general more people sang the entrance hymn, than the others.

At tea, I decided to approach several people and ask them in a friendly way why people did not sing: These are the responses I received, after speaking to about 25 people:

• We have a great choir (my note - they don’t!), and I think people leave the singing to them
• Several people said they think people get embarrassed.

BUT what I found startling was that most people seemed to be in a state of denial> They said things like : People do sing. When I asked them if they sing, they said sometimes.

It’s very strange and I am none the wiser: I didn’t encounter any theological objection to hymn singing (and nobody mentioned that the majority of hymns that Sunday were by Protestant authors), for some reason people simply seem to opt out and I feel very sad.

Thank you for posting this. How interesting and useful.

Actually, I’m not at all surprised that people seem to be in denial. This is what I mean when I say that many people do not know how to sing properly. They are probably standing there with the hymnal and “singing” like they do outside of Mass. They do not open their mouth, and they kind of “hum” the hymn in their heads, but no sound is comes out. They’re singing like they would sing at work or in public–just in their heads, so that they don’t annoy irritate anyone else. That’s the way Americans sing nowadays. They THINK they are singing! But of course they are not singing. It’s just the way people sing in the U.S.–they kind of hum/sing in their heads along with a radio or iPod.

Like I keep saying, people do NOT know how to sing.

And BTW, I’ve been thinking a lot about some of the comments on this thread, that the songs are just personal prayers. I really have a difficult time accepting this. Mass lasts about an hour. MOST of the Mass is personal, private, “me and Jesus” time, and its fine to not vocalize.

But there are a few times in the Mass when we really need to come out of our souls and join with our fellow Christians, our brothers and sisters in Christ, and ACT like the Body of Christ, and do the work of the liturgy TOGETHER.

One of those times is the recitation of the Creed–this corporate recitation of the Nicene Creed is a powerful, bold, and stirring witness to the WORLD that we believe in Jesus Christ and the Christian Gospel. THIS part of the Mass could get us executed in certain countries.

The other times in the Mass when we need to do the work of the liturgy together is the congregational hymns. When the priest has made the decision that a hymn is to be sung by the congregation, we need to obey the priest and do the hymn, even if we would prefer a Proper or a choir rendition of the hymn. If we don’t work together and join in the congregational hymn, only a few people sing, and it appears to a watching world (both real world and spiritual world) that we are wimpy and weak. A few people singing a hymn sounds powerless. But when EVERYONE joins in and sings with a full heart and a full voice, it is powerful and stirring, and demons tremble and the world knows with a certainty that we are believers in Jesus.

If we don’t sing or at least listen actively, then we deny others in the congregation the joy and pleasure of a true congregational hymn and leave them with a mere ensemble. I can’t sing congregational hymns ANY OTHER TIME other than Mass. I can’t sing them at home or in the car or in the Adoration Chapel or working or exercising because during those time, I don’t have a congregation of people! It is only at Mass that I have that congregation surrounding me!

There are plenty of times in the Mass for quiet contemplation, private prayers, and personal devotion to the Lord Jesus. The congregational hymns are NOT those times. We need to stop making up reasons to disobey the priest, humble ourselves, gird up our loins, and WORK to make the effort to sing or at least listen actively during the congregational hymns.

 

[mariyka]

I think you could be right Mariyka. What’s interesting is that I went to Choral Evensong at the Anglican Church last Sunday, where one of the same hymns - All Hail the Power of Jesus name - was sung with such strength and power with a small congregation of only about 25. Perhaps the English choral tradition in Anglicanism is seen as tradition to uphold and is valued in these churches?

I know it is in the Byzantine tradition.

I just noticed what you wrote. You stated it was a small congregation and so are most Byzantine. Could that be a factor? The larger the congregation, the fewer people sing proportionally? “Someone else will do the singing” syndrome? If there are fewer people, not singing is much more noticeable.

 

[liturgyluver]

I know it is in the Byzantine tradition.

I just noticed what you wrote. You stated it was a small congregation and so are most Byzantine. Could that be a factor? The larger the congregation, the fewer people sing proportionally? “Someone else will do the singing” syndrome? If there are fewer people, not singing is much more noticeable.

I think that could be part of it…on the other hand I have also been to crowded Sung Eucharists at Anglican churches where everybody sings so loud and well, that I thought the roof would come off!!

 

[ProVobis]

I think that could be part of it…on the other hand I have also been to crowded Sung Eucharists at Anglican churches where everybody sings so loud and well, that I thought the roof would come off!!

You’re throwing in a lot of variables.

There is no obligation on the Anglicans part to attend services so one would expect those who do come to be a little more into it. Who wants to be made to or told to sing on a Sunday morning where they’re half-awake to begin with? And how many Catholics look to the Anglican Church to lead them in anything? Because the Anglican Church does it would probably convince me not to do it. Just my opinion.

Instead of comparing an obligatory service versus an non-obligatory service, attend a Catholic benediction or some other non-obligatory service, then come back and report.

 

[liturgyluver]

But then there is no obligation on the Anglicans part to attend services so one would expect those who do come to be a little more into it. Who wants to be made to or told to sing on a Sunday morning where they’re half-awake to begin with? And how many Catholics look to the Anglican Church to show them up? Just my opinion.

Instead of comparing an obligatory service versus an non-obligatory service, attend a Catholic benediction or some other non-obligatory service, then come back and report.

I’m sorry but this argument does not work for me - Catholics engage with the responses to the litugy and the sung Ordinary of the mass, so to suggest that they drift into and out of attention during the different stages of the mass is quite strange. Your words are very telling though “who wants to be made to sing” making it sound like some kind of torture!

Actually I go to solemn benediction every Saturday night - even then only a faithful few sing the Tantum Ergo.

 

[ProVobis]

Your words are very telling though “who wants to be made to sing” making it sound like some kind of torture!

No. It’s just that some don’t want to be told what to do, especially by the liturgy “experts.” Many don’t even kneel properly when they’re supposed to. Didn’t we already cover this?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think if it’s the desire of priests that congregations sing, if they would sing the mass themselves, then it would lead into a more active congregation when singing hymns. I know of several priests who chant the entire mass, every mass, and their congregations are very active singers, and are REALLY good. Then again, I don’t expect or even want all priests to do this. My pastor, God bless him, is anawful singer. It’s pretty bad when his heavy Jersey accent gets amplified when he forgets to turn off his mic when he sings.

I think people need to grow up and put away this childish, silly “anti-tradition” stuff and just do whatever makes most sense liturgically and aesthetically, as long as it’s allowed. I don’t care, honestly, if the congregation sings, or if the priest sings, or not. It doesn’t much affect my experience at mass, as long as some group is singing. At my church, not many people sing, and father certainly doesn’t very often, but we have a great choir, and their voices fill the space quite well. I’m fine with that. Then again, if the congregation decides they want to sing one day, great, good, fine, whatever, awesome. Generally, the congregation sings the processional and recessional hymns, as well as the responsorial psalm quite actively, but leaves the rest to the choir. I think this works quite well. The offertory hymn this past Sunday was Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, and it was an extremely good choice. The congregation was deathly quiet during it, and the choir sang softly, with a low organ accompaniment, and bells were rung at several points. I think the experience was heightened by the dichotomy between the choir and the congregation. My parish does a very good demonstration of the value of full-blown congregational singing at some times, and choir-only singing at others.