S
StTommyMore
Guest
The “new” hymns I agree are rather horrid. There should be a rule about using hymns not more than 100 years old
- Status
Z
zab
Guest
We sing mostly traditional hymns. Occassionly one of the “modern” hymns gets thrown in. I just don’t feel comfortable singing along to those. But as a whole, the congregation is pretty good at singing along at most of the Masses. Years ago, it used to be that at the end of Mass, immediately after the priest processed down the aisle, the people would pour out of the church. What has become unusual in our parish over the last two decades is that most of the people now stay at the end of Mass until all of the verses are sung or at least until when the choir stops singing.
J
JHow
Guest
In our OCP “missalettes” there is usually only one voice part. In the hymnbooks of my (Protestant) youth there was usually a higher and lower (presumably male) voice part, plus the piano music above. I would be more likely to sing if the lower voicepart was there.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, hard to get that in TLM where the people are detached from participation in the Liturgy. The problem with the OF is that the choir director acts like a radio station DJ and shuffles music like it was a highschool prom. So people never learn the music and sing along. Not everyone can pick up a book and read the notes and sing along. In fact, most people can’t do that. So often its only the choir who knows the music.
A
Angel_Bradford
Guest
We sing!
P
Phemie
Guest
We had that same conversation at our Royal Wedding Breakfast – 6 Catholic women ranging in age from 26 to 60 who just needed another reason to gather at 5:30 a.m. for good food and mimosas
– and the comment was “Yes, but listen, not a Haugen nor Haas song in evidence. Our parish sings too when we do things like ‘All Creatures that on Earth Do Dwell’.”That new piece by Rutter was particularly lovely.
B
BernadetteM
Guest
If one gets a chance attend an Anglican Use Mass. They only use traditional hymns and everyone sings. Almost all verses are sung and no one leaves Mass until after the last hymn is sung. Usually many stay for a few minutes to pray before leaving.
I like the fact that most don’t stampede out of the church the moment the priest recesses out. At our parish they only sing traditional hymns, although only two verses are sung.
Also in AU parishes most of the responses are sung, it is really quite beautiful and one feels like they are fully participating in the liturgy. You can watch the AU liturgy at http:www.atonementonline.com.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
I like the fact that most don’t stampede out of the church the moment the priest recesses out. At our parish they only sing traditional hymns, although only two verses are sung.
Also in AU parishes most of the responses are sung, it is really quite beautiful and one feels like they are fully participating in the liturgy. You can watch the AU liturgy at http:www.atonementonline.com.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
A
amsjj
Guest
I’m admit when I started attending the Mass in English years ago, there was a definite contrast in my experience. At the Spanish Mass I attended growing up, the entire congregation would sing, this beautiful wave of sound, as they followed not music books (b/c we didn’t have any), but would echo the cantor or sing the choruses. In the English Mass, it was… a few people.
Looking back, I do think the “singability” of the music played an important role. I don’t read music and finding the rhythm of the music played at the English Masses is difficult for me. I am glad they have a cantor (who sound like they could sing beautiful opera), but that’s sure not what I could do – I’m not that gifted!
At the Latin Mass we have traditional hymns, but mainly chant. I went off and memorized the regular Mass settings. There were a few spots I found tricky, but in the main, it was easy to learn.
take care,
amsjj
+++
Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
– Blessed John Henry Newman, December 22, 1851
Tú y yo sabemos por la fe que oculto en las especies sacramentales está Cristo,
ese Cristo con su Cuerpo, con su Sangre, con su Alma, y con su Divinidad,
prisonero de amor.
– San Josemaria Escriva, 1 junio 1974
Looking back, I do think the “singability” of the music played an important role. I don’t read music and finding the rhythm of the music played at the English Masses is difficult for me. I am glad they have a cantor (who sound like they could sing beautiful opera), but that’s sure not what I could do – I’m not that gifted!
At the Latin Mass we have traditional hymns, but mainly chant. I went off and memorized the regular Mass settings. There were a few spots I found tricky, but in the main, it was easy to learn.
take care,
amsjj
+++
Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
– Blessed John Henry Newman, December 22, 1851
Tú y yo sabemos por la fe que oculto en las especies sacramentales está Cristo,
ese Cristo con su Cuerpo, con su Sangre, con su Alma, y con su Divinidad,
prisonero de amor.
– San Josemaria Escriva, 1 junio 1974
B
Beloved2010
Guest
I attend St. Mary’s Catholic Church in College Station; it is the church that does campus ministry at Texas A&M University. Most people sing during Mass, which is great! Our music director uses songs we all know, although I find some of them to be out of some people’s vocal range. Fortunately, everyone is singing so it doesn’t matter how badly you sing because there are many good singers around. You can only hear yourself.
I have also attended the Extraordinary Form Mass. I find that Gregorian Chant really uplifts my soul to Almighty God. Ironically, Gregorian Chant is what Vatican II says we should all sing, but you don’t see many parishes using it. Personally, I prefer Gregorian Chant. It is very simple to sing and it is more solemn. I think it produces an ambiance that is more appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The only drawback is that I don’t know much Latin.
I find that people at my church sing because most of us are on fire with our faith. Most everyone I know there is orthodox to the magisterium. There is a genuine love for God and Mother Church’s Liturgy. There is also a very strong atmosphere that encourages vocations to Holy Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Religious Life.
I think the key is for people to embrace Jesus, His crucifixion, and His Resurrection. Many Catholics are only culturally Catholic. This is part of reason why people do not sing. Antoher factor is the choice of songs. The simpler the better.
I have also attended the Extraordinary Form Mass. I find that Gregorian Chant really uplifts my soul to Almighty God. Ironically, Gregorian Chant is what Vatican II says we should all sing, but you don’t see many parishes using it. Personally, I prefer Gregorian Chant. It is very simple to sing and it is more solemn. I think it produces an ambiance that is more appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The only drawback is that I don’t know much Latin.
I find that people at my church sing because most of us are on fire with our faith. Most everyone I know there is orthodox to the magisterium. There is a genuine love for God and Mother Church’s Liturgy. There is also a very strong atmosphere that encourages vocations to Holy Matrimony, Holy Orders, and Religious Life.
I think the key is for people to embrace Jesus, His crucifixion, and His Resurrection. Many Catholics are only culturally Catholic. This is part of reason why people do not sing. Antoher factor is the choice of songs. The simpler the better.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I don’t know about the rest of you but except for the “Guide Me Ever Great Redeemer” (which apparently even those outside were singing at Diana’s funeral) I didn’t understand a word of any of the other hymns.
That said, it was a pleasant-to-watch wedding. Got to hand it to the Anglicans.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I think this is the problem of the OF today. Too many songs, some are complicated. People wouldn’t want to sing something they are not familiar with. One thing I love about the Divine Liturgy is a lot of the hymns are the same hymns throughout the year. After you’ve attended a few, you can easily join in the singing and you only get better with time. With the OF it depends on the choir director. When I was in elementary and in Catholic school, we’d sing the hymns to Mass during Music class. Not the case today as an adult and its the same case for all other adult Catholics. A lot of the hymns you don’t hear more than once or twice a year. And as I mentioned earlier, a great majority can’t read notes and sing a song they are unfamiliar with. Thus the tendency of most to just sit or stand quietly.
E
elgar
Guest
I think it is a combination of things. Dare I say it the Brits in general have better taste in music than Americans? Also they are tops when it comes to decorum, pageantry and pace. The hymns whether old or newly composed are solid, singable and are married to sublime texts. The pipe organs are usually well designed and always in tune and the organists for the most part are some of the best around. The reason one may not recognize some of the hymn tunes is because the British are partial to certain hymn tunes but the they are using texts you might be familiar with. I enjoyed watching the people outside singing away to “Jersusalem” which is more patriotic than religious but stirring nonetheless. Always gives me chills!
K
karow
Guest
One of our priests loves to sing; I suspect he’d sing his homily it he could get away with it. He’s said more than once that singing is a great form of prayer.
I love hearing that because I love to sing. I’m unselfconscious about my singing. During mass I could give a rip if there’s an organ or piano or no accompaniment at all, I’m going to belt that song out. It doesn’t matter if it’s an old hymn or modern tune or a dirge or even a song I don’t know all that well. The problem is that my singing voice is horrible. During more than one mass my husband’s leaned over to me and whispered, “Sing a little louder why don’t ya?”
My daughters are too young to be embarrassed by their mother, but when they’re 14 or so I’m doing to delight in sitting between them at mass, singing my heart out.
L
lisaraek
Guest
I’ve enjoyed this thread. I am a recently confirmed convert to the Catholic church from the Southern Baptist denomination and this music debate is not unique to the Catholics. Baptists complain endlessly about music and there doesn’t seem to be a way to please them. Of course, music is a huge part of Baptist services. If all you have is 25 minutes of praise music and a 40 minute, 7- point sermon as your service, well, you tend to notice the music more.
Most modern Southern Baptist churches have long ago tossed out their hymnals ----no more written harmony parts— and now only sing a cycle of repetitive choruses. Some are good and fun to sing but many are simply innane. Often, they use the words of old hymns rewritten with a rock beat to make them more relevant to modern listeners. Even Christmas carols are “rocked”.
Since I’ve seen where an over emphasis on both music and relevancy to modern sensibilites and tastes leads, I think I will sit contentedly in my pew, sing high- pitched, non-relevant hymns and psalms and thank God…Lisa Rae
Most modern Southern Baptist churches have long ago tossed out their hymnals ----no more written harmony parts— and now only sing a cycle of repetitive choruses. Some are good and fun to sing but many are simply innane. Often, they use the words of old hymns rewritten with a rock beat to make them more relevant to modern listeners. Even Christmas carols are “rocked”.
Since I’ve seen where an over emphasis on both music and relevancy to modern sensibilites and tastes leads, I think I will sit contentedly in my pew, sing high- pitched, non-relevant hymns and psalms and thank God…Lisa Rae
M
mark_a
Guest
That’s the deal at my Church too. Congregation participation is 5x, especially when the organist is playing the lowest notes. It’s such a nice full sound that just seems to encourage all us bad singers.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
if you want to get met to sing it is very easy, choose a hymn that is in the book so I can read the words, and announce the number so I can hear
play the music as written
instruct the cantor, and choir, to just sing it as written, not to change the words to make them PC or change the music, tempo, and meter to fit their own quirks, and to sing in a manner that invites, does not intimidate, congregational singing
choose a hymn with a tune that is familiar or can be easily learned, not one that is written to deliberately defy all conventions of western music
if it is a new hymn please spend 5 minutes teaching it to the congregation
sing it in a key adaptable to most people, not top sopranos.
I warn you right now if you choose a hymn with heretical lyrics I will not sing, but I may encourage the rowdy children sitting in front of me to make a commotion to drown you out until the song is over.
play the music as written
instruct the cantor, and choir, to just sing it as written, not to change the words to make them PC or change the music, tempo, and meter to fit their own quirks, and to sing in a manner that invites, does not intimidate, congregational singing
choose a hymn with a tune that is familiar or can be easily learned, not one that is written to deliberately defy all conventions of western music
if it is a new hymn please spend 5 minutes teaching it to the congregation
sing it in a key adaptable to most people, not top sopranos.
I warn you right now if you choose a hymn with heretical lyrics I will not sing, but I may encourage the rowdy children sitting in front of me to make a commotion to drown you out until the song is over.
C
Cat
Guest
A few years ago, after I read several threads like this one in which Catholics insist that the “modern” hymns are too high, I sat me down and did a little study.
I took ten of the “modern” hymns, the most popular ones (like On Eagles Wings, Gather Us In, One Bread One Body, etc.) and ten of the “traditional” hymns, the most beloved ones (like Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Praise Ye The Lord the Almighty, etc.)
I compared the ranges of the hymns.
What I discovered is that the modern hymns have a narrower range and a LOWER range than the traditional hymns.
Sorry, folks, I don’t buy the “they’re too high to sing” argument, because it’s not true.
Here are the reasons people don’t sing in corporate settings.
Many people blame their lack of singing on high notes, insisting that the songs are written in a register that is too high for them. That’s not true. The hymns in hymnals are generally written in the alto-bass range. The problem isn’t the pitches, it’s the fact that WE DON’T KNOW HOW TO SING, and therefore, we think we can’t hit those notes. If we were taught how to sing, and if we practiced it, we would easily be able to sing the hymns, both contemporary and modern. But we don’t know how to sing, and we keep blaming our lack of singing ability on “the composer” or “the publisher” or “the music style.”
I took ten of the “modern” hymns, the most popular ones (like On Eagles Wings, Gather Us In, One Bread One Body, etc.) and ten of the “traditional” hymns, the most beloved ones (like Holy God We Praise Thy Name, Praise Ye The Lord the Almighty, etc.)
I compared the ranges of the hymns.
What I discovered is that the modern hymns have a narrower range and a LOWER range than the traditional hymns.
Sorry, folks, I don’t buy the “they’re too high to sing” argument, because it’s not true.
Here are the reasons people don’t sing in corporate settings.
- We don’t know how to sing. There is a correct technique that schools used to teach, but now so many schools have cut back on the arts that many children never learn to sing. We grow up to be adults who don’t know how to sing.
Many people blame their lack of singing on high notes, insisting that the songs are written in a register that is too high for them. That’s not true. The hymns in hymnals are generally written in the alto-bass range. The problem isn’t the pitches, it’s the fact that WE DON’T KNOW HOW TO SING, and therefore, we think we can’t hit those notes. If we were taught how to sing, and if we practiced it, we would easily be able to sing the hymns, both contemporary and modern. But we don’t know how to sing, and we keep blaming our lack of singing ability on “the composer” or “the publisher” or “the music style.”
- We don’t know how to read music. Again, this is something that used to be taught either in schools, or at home, or in a children’s choir, often church-based. But these things are, sadly, gone the way of other old-fashioned customs.
- We listen exclusively to pop, rock, or country music. These forms, while enjoyable, bend the pitches, which affects our ability to hear pitches correctly, and therefore negatively affects our ability to sing.
- Corporate singing is NOT part of our culture or social structure in the United States. People used to sing with others while they worked. Children’s games used to involve singing various chants and rhyme. Men used to sing a corporate song (e.g., there is an IBM corporate song). Women would sing together while they cooked or sewed. People used to gather around a piano in the parlor or family room and do sing-a-longs. Teenagers used to sing on the bus on the way to camp or a sporting event.
- Many men have somehow incorporated the idea that singing is for sissies, or singing is “gay,” or singing is for women only, or for children only, or for stars only. They wouldn’t dream of singing–eugh! And when men don’t sing, boys don’t sing. And when boys don’t sing, girls don’t sing, because they don’t want to be made fun of or called “weak.” And when the men and boys and girls aren’t singing, and only the women sing, this reinforces what the men already believe–singing is for sissies and girlie types.
- In the United States, we have become a culture of “spectators” rather than participants. Many hold the opinion that only profesionals can sing, while the rest of us are better off keeping quiet. We go to concerts and cheer or dance, but we don’t join in because we are not supposed to join in, at least, that’s what we have gotten used to–just sitting passively and listening to “stars” sing.
- We have the idea that if we don’t like the song, or don’t approve of the song, that we have the right not to sing in Mass. We think that we’re in charge of the Mass music. This is one of the main reasons we don’t sing. Singers HAVE to do what their conductor/music director tells them to do, or they won’t get very far. When we insist that we will not sing any song that we personally don’t like or approve of, well, no wonder we don’t sing. We have to be willing to be led if we are going to sing.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
I would like to disagree in part, and in a friendly
way. Yes, the “everlasting is thy reign” in “Holy God we Praise Thy Name” asks a lot of a male singer. But you know, if you can’t hit the highest two notes, you can let them go and join back in when it comes down. On the other hand when “Eagles’ Wings” goes into that “the snare of the fowler…” part, I don’t know that anybody but John Denver could have stayed with that. (Besides, it’s too “busy”)I LOVE to sing in church, and I do. I was never trained professionally, but I sang in choirs, madrigals, quartets, with accompaniment and a capella, in high school and in college. I can read music and have, at some point, sung every male part from bass to first tenor. Taught my children to sing harmony with me. I developed a lot of diaphragmatic breath support and a pretty fair range. I don’t care if people think I’m silly or not. I love to sing, and I’ll do it, and it carries.
(continued)
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
(continued)
I can’t analyze the 1970s and 1980s songs from a technical standpoint, but besides their having kind of forced and sometimes even inane lyrics, and besides their being of an outdated genre that wasn’t all that good to begin with, they really are hard to sing. Part of it, I think, really has to do with the placement of vowels. When you sing, you’re really singing the vowels, minimally interspersed with consonants so the words make sense. But compare for a moment the following:
“everlaaastiing i-is thy naaaame”, or even “…myyy saaavior God to theeee” versus “the snarrrre of the fowlerrrr”.
And, from another aspect, compare: “Abide with me /fast falls the eventide/The darkness deepens/Lord with me abide/When other helpers fail/and comforts flee/Help of the helpless, O abide with me”.
versus “Let us build the City of God. May our tears be turned into dancing…”
The first is profound. Males can identify with that; I don’t care how macho they are. Males pray in private like that, just not as poetically. The second is just silly. What man can possibly identify with the notion of his tears turning into dancing? It’s far too gay, and the melody is mincing besides. And what’s this building a city of God??? Who thinks in those terms? Are we supposed to think that way? Is it ever made plain what that’s about?
And WHO in his prayers ever says “Yahweh”, as in “Yahweh, I know you are near…” It’s faux “early Christianity” I guess. But they didn’t say it either. Actually, we’re not supposed to say that in liturgies.
The St. Louis Jesuits and Marty Haugen and all of them had their day, but that day is long past. Time to move on and get some real song writers to write new ones and to utilize the “tried and true” as well.
It embarrasses me (but not much) that in my parishes, people really do sing the old protestant hymns and “Holy God we Praise Thy Name”, but don’t sing the faux folk songs of the 1970s and 1980s.
There is a reason why some things are never old while some much newer things seem out of date. Some things have real talent and profundity behind them. Some don’t.
Time to move on, musically.
I can’t analyze the 1970s and 1980s songs from a technical standpoint, but besides their having kind of forced and sometimes even inane lyrics, and besides their being of an outdated genre that wasn’t all that good to begin with, they really are hard to sing. Part of it, I think, really has to do with the placement of vowels. When you sing, you’re really singing the vowels, minimally interspersed with consonants so the words make sense. But compare for a moment the following:
“everlaaastiing i-is thy naaaame”, or even “…myyy saaavior God to theeee” versus “the snarrrre of the fowlerrrr”.
And, from another aspect, compare: “Abide with me /fast falls the eventide/The darkness deepens/Lord with me abide/When other helpers fail/and comforts flee/Help of the helpless, O abide with me”.
versus “Let us build the City of God. May our tears be turned into dancing…”
The first is profound. Males can identify with that; I don’t care how macho they are. Males pray in private like that, just not as poetically. The second is just silly. What man can possibly identify with the notion of his tears turning into dancing? It’s far too gay, and the melody is mincing besides. And what’s this building a city of God??? Who thinks in those terms? Are we supposed to think that way? Is it ever made plain what that’s about?
And WHO in his prayers ever says “Yahweh”, as in “Yahweh, I know you are near…” It’s faux “early Christianity” I guess. But they didn’t say it either. Actually, we’re not supposed to say that in liturgies.
The St. Louis Jesuits and Marty Haugen and all of them had their day, but that day is long past. Time to move on and get some real song writers to write new ones and to utilize the “tried and true” as well.
It embarrasses me (but not much) that in my parishes, people really do sing the old protestant hymns and “Holy God we Praise Thy Name”, but don’t sing the faux folk songs of the 1970s and 1980s.
There is a reason why some things are never old while some much newer things seem out of date. Some things have real talent and profundity behind them. Some don’t.
Time to move on, musically.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Firstly, I just want to say that there are many, many reasons why Catholics don’t sing well, which have been expressed here already.I would like to disagree in part, and in a friendly
I also think one of the problems with a lot of the so-called “newer” hymns is that often times, each verse is different rhythmically, and is sometimes difficult for the average person to sing correctly. Also, the way the melody line is composed can determine the difficulty or ease of being able to sing the hymn, even if it is written within the vocal range of a typical untrained singer. When my husband first started composing songs, although the music sounded beautiful and was within the vocal range he was composing for, he didn’t take into account the way the voice worked. Some compositional approaches are easier than others vocally-speaking. If you are composing for untrained singers you don’t want to make it difficult for them.
Cat had a lot of valid points as well, especially in terms of people tend to not know how to sing anymore and just not being able to read music… so how can we expect them to be able to read hymns which constantly change with each verse?
I’ll take the more popular hymns often used at funerals I’ve cantored: “Be Not Afraid”, “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Amazing Grace” and “I Heard the Voice of Jesus”. I’ll try to explain as simply as I can. I will not discuss my tastes as to if I like the music or not. Because I’m a professional and hired to cantor, whether or not I like the piece it is my responsibility to give my best. I sing it as written and I focus on the text so that it is prayerful.
So first, “Be Not Afraid” - I have never heard any congregation sing this hymn as written. Most people don’t even understand what 16th notes mean or how to handle a double-dotted quarter note, which this piece has a lot of. First verse starts with two 16th notes on “You Shall”. It is often sung like two 8th notes, along with the 16th notes on “but you”. The rhythms in the second verse are also much different from the first.
Next, “On Eagle’s Wings” - Again, each verse is different rhythmically. The major problem I find with this hymn are the intervals for the untrained voice to sing. The vocal range is all over the place. So you start the voice off towards the upper range of a typical untrained voice for the first two measures of the first verse. Then on the last beat of the second measure it does an octave jump from D4 to D5. That isn’t easy to accomplish well with an untrained voice. For the female voice, the lower D sits more in their chest voice and the higher D sits more in their head voice. It’s easier to navigate the change from the chest to head voice when there is a gradual progression of notes in between, but to make the voice jump without having those transition notes can ask a lot for one who is untrained voice.
Then the refrain. Where the verse starts in the upper part of a typical person’s natural register, the refrain begins in the lower part of the register. I’ve found for a lot of people, although they “love” this hymn, they can’t sing this part or at least can’t sing it well. Although the interval isn’t as wide to sing, because “And he will” sits very low (at least for most female voices), to ask one’s voice to then jump to the E can make the voice sound a little shaky or make that “breaking” sound or yodel in the voice.
Third hymn - “Here I Am, Lord” - This is the easiest to sing rhythmically and range-wise out of the three “newer” hymns. The only confusing part to most congregants are measures 7 through 10 at “My hand will save”. “Save” is a whole note held for four beats, but then there is a whole measure of just the instrument playing, to which at this time, I often hear people start to come in or on measure 10 will come in a beat too early.
Fourth hymn - “Amazing Grace”. ** (Let’s not get into the appropriateness of the hymn text, please) **The music is very straight-forward and fairly simple to follow. Each verse is the same, musically. I don’t ever hear people having a problem with singing it, for the most part. The only point in the hymn for some people, might be the interval between the A and the D at “like me” in the first verse.
Fifth Hymn - “I Heard the Voice of Jesus” - It is not a “newer” hymn, and roughly within the same vocal range of “Amazing Grace”, “Here I Am, Lord” and “Be Not Afraid”. Along with “Amazing Grace”, it is usually not problematic to sing. Even the D on the word “came” isn’t difficult at “I came to Jesus…” because of how the B and C progresses to the D in the hymn. It helps the singer out, so-to-speak, and perhaps because it was originally “traditional” English folk melody, it is meant to be easily sung. Rhythmically, also pretty straight-forward. There are no surprises with each new verse.
- Status