Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[Sarabande]

All the being said above, I have to say, where I cantor the congregation sings pretty well there. They were incredible on Easter and Easter Vigil. We do a lot of “traditional” hymns which they sing well, but they also do sing some of the “newer” hymns well, except for the ones that are like those I mentioned above. I always end up singing solo, which is not the point of being a cantor.

 

[TrueLight]

I’d prefer a dark, quiet, mystical atmosphere where we can pray and not make as much noise as possible with our vocal cords. We seriously need to tone down on the hymns and emotionalism. Experience with God is a quiet inner movement of the will. It is never silent, but it is stoic, staid, and mysterious. We are entering into the abyss of light, beyond which there is and can be nothing. It should be approached by Gregorian Chant, in my opinion.

Hi Glorious Order,

Everyone has their preferences, but I don’t equate being Holy necessarily with stoicism. There is nothing wrong with for example, singing during the procession of the Priest and servers or singing a hymn afterwards.

Psalm 147:1
Praise the Lord! For it is good to sing praises to our God; for it is pleasant, and a song of praise is fitting.

**
Romans 15:9**
And in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.”

And what do you know? Could it be God sings as well? What a wonderful thought.

Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

 

[TrueLight]

If one gets a chance attend an Anglican Use Mass. They only use traditional hymns and everyone sings. Almost all verses are sung and no one leaves Mass until after the last hymn is sung. Usually many stay for a few minutes to pray before leaving.

I like the fact that most don’t stampede out of the church the moment the priest recesses out. At our parish they only sing traditional hymns, although only two verses are sung.

Also in AU parishes most of the responses are sung, it is really quite beautiful and one feels like they are fully participating in the liturgy. You can watch the AU liturgy at http:www.atonementonline.com.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Very nice. It is almost like a TLM. Same reverence. I watched this video on You Tube.

I haven’t seen any Anglican Use parishes in NYC, though.

 

[TrueLight]

Well, hard to get that in TLM where the people are detached from participation in the Liturgy. .

But a TLM can also be in a form where the congregation sings the responses right? Is that a Missa Cantata?

 

[TrueLight]

Firstly, I just want to say that there are many, many reasons why Catholics don’t sing well, which have been expressed here already.

I also think one of the problems with a lot of the so-called “newer” hymns is that often times, each verse is different rhythmically, and is sometimes difficult for the average person to sing correctly. Also, the way the melody line is composed can determine the difficulty or ease of being able to sing the hymn, even if it is written within the vocal range of a typical untrained singer. When my husband first started composing songs, although the music sounded beautiful and was within the vocal range he was composing for, he didn’t take into account the way the voice worked. Some compositional approaches are easier than others vocally-speaking. If you are composing for untrained singers you don’t want to make it difficult for them.

Cat had a lot of valid points as well, especially in terms of people tend to not know how to sing anymore and just not being able to read music… so how can we expect them to be able to read hymns which constantly change with each verse?

I’ll take the more popular hymns often used at funerals I’ve cantored: “Be Not Afraid”, “On Eagle’s Wings”, “Here I Am, Lord”, “Amazing Grace” and “I Heard the Voice of Jesus”. I’ll try to explain as simply as I can. I will not discuss my tastes as to if I like the music or not. Because I’m a professional and hired to cantor, whether or not I like the piece it is my responsibility to give my best. I sing it as written and I focus on the text so that it is prayerful.

So first, “Be Not Afraid” - I have never heard any congregation sing this hymn as written. Most people don’t even understand what 16th notes mean or how to handle a double-dotted quarter note, which this piece has a lot of. First verse starts with two 16th notes on “You Shall”. It is often sung like two 8th notes, along with the 16th notes on “but you”. The rhythms in the second verse are also much different from the first.

Next, “On Eagle’s Wings” - Again, each verse is different rhythmically. The major problem I find with this hymn are the intervals for the untrained voice to sing. The vocal range is all over the place. So you start the voice off towards the upper range of a typical untrained voice for the first two measures of the first verse. Then on the last beat of the second measure it does an octave jump from D4 to D5. That isn’t easy to accomplish well with an untrained voice. For the female voice, the lower D sits more in their chest voice and the higher D sits more in their head voice. It’s easier to navigate the change from the chest to head voice when there is a gradual progression of notes in between, but to make the voice jump without having those transition notes can ask a lot for one who is untrained voice.

Then the refrain. Where the verse starts in the upper part of a typical person’s natural register, the refrain begins in the lower part of the register. I’ve found for a lot of people, although they “love” this hymn, they can’t sing this part or at least can’t sing it well. Although the interval isn’t as wide to sing, because “And he will” sits very low (at least for most female voices), to ask one’s voice to then jump to the E can make the voice sound a little shaky or make that “breaking” sound or yodel in the voice.

Third hymn - “Here I Am, Lord” - This is the easiest to sing rhythmically and range-wise out of the three “newer” hymns. The only confusing part to most congregants are measures 7 through 10 at “My hand will save”. “Save” is a whole note held for four beats, but then there is a whole measure of just the instrument playing, to which at this time, I often hear people start to come in or on measure 10 will come in a beat too early.

Fourth hymn - “Amazing Grace”. ** (Let’s not get into the appropriateness of the hymn text, please) **The music is very straight-forward and fairly simple to follow. Each verse is the same, musically. I don’t ever hear people having a problem with singing it, for the most part. The only point in the hymn for some people, might be the interval between the A and the D at “like me” in the first verse.

Fifth Hymn - “I Heard the Voice of Jesus” - It is not a “newer” hymn, and roughly within the same vocal range of “Amazing Grace”, “Here I Am, Lord” and “Be Not Afraid”. Along with “Amazing Grace”, it is usually not problematic to sing. Even the D on the word “came” isn’t difficult at “I came to Jesus…” because of how the B and C progresses to the D in the hymn. It helps the singer out, so-to-speak, and perhaps because it was originally “traditional” English folk melody, it is meant to be easily sung. Rhythmically, also pretty straight-forward. There are no surprises with each new verse.

Great analysis!

I’m a first Soprano.

I find that at some of the congregations the Priest has a high tenor range when he chants. So to use my favorite response “et cum spiritu tuo”, I’m either in the basement with the rest of the women who can’t sing as high as the tenor or I am sticking out with what seems like a ridiculously high voice.

It may not be as pleasurable for me to sing in my lowest register. but that’s okay. As long as we SING.

 

[Sarabande]

Great analysis!

Thanks, I was trying to explain as much as I could in simple terms, but I don’t know if I accomplished that well enough.

I’m a first Soprano.

I find that at some of the congregations the Priest has a high tenor range when he chants. So to use my favorite response “et cum spiritu tuo”, I’m either in the basement with the rest of the women who can’t sing as high as the tenor or I am sticking out with what seems like a ridiculously high voice.

haha! I’m a mezzo-soprano, so I have a good range for “church singing” let’s say, because I understand totally by what you mean in regards to doing the responses. Although in the secular world, I’m fortunate to have a range to be able to sing both mezzo and soprano repertoire.

It may not be as pleasurable for me to sing in my lowest register. but that’s okay. As long as we SING.

Agreed. One of our goals, especially as music ministers, is to help people sing, so I believe that entails music which can be easily sung. Why make it more difficult for them with compositions which can be done well with someone who is trained and reads more, but not be done so well with a congregation? I liken many of those hymns I mentioned in my previous post to the solos of musicals or the arias of operas. They were written like they were to be sung by a trained solo voice… not for a congregation.

Hymn compositions should be simple and straight forward so that many if not all people can sing them, in my opinion. And that doesn’t mean lose the beauty of the melody, as there are many beautiful, “simple” and straight-forward hymn melodies.

 

[TrueLight]

Can anyone tell me what that song is at about 27:20 to 27:45? It is absolutely gorgeous.

 

[MarkThompson]

But a TLM can also be in a form where the congregation sings the responses right? Is that a Missa Cantata?

No, Missa Cantata refers to the priest’s singing. The congregation is not expected to sing a single note (including “Et cum spiritu tuo,” “Habemus ad dominum,” and so on), although this became more common in the 20th century, and has always been more common in some places and less common in others. Some older people will swear that before the Council they never heard a congregation sing any part of the service (obviously, you might have vernacular hymns in low Masses), and others will equally swear that that they grew up in congregations that sang the whole ordinary.

Unfortunately, today we no longer really have geographic traditions about these things, so actually it can be tough to know what to expect in the singing department when you go to a new TLM. There seems to be a very wide range of practices people follow, and there’s definitely a tension between the traditionalist view (“hearing Mass”; congregation remains silent) and the practice of congregational participation which was promoted by Pius X.

 

[Sarabande]

Can anyone tell me what that song is at about 27:20 to 27:45? It is absolutely gorgeous.

I don’t know the title, but it sounds like a typical chant melody often set to psalm verses. The hymn sung after it is the Abbot’s Leigh melody that my parish often does set to “Lord, You Give the Great Commision”.

It was neat hearing them chant/sing the same prayer of the faithful that my old parish did. The choir used to do the response with lovely harmonizations.

 

[BernadetteM]

Very nice. It is almost like a TLM. Same reverence. I watched this video on You Tube.

I haven’t seen any Anglican Use parishes in NYC, though.

Now that the Ordinariates are being established, it appears one will soon be established in the US, Rome is working on a revised AU liturgy. Hopefully it will be much more similar to the TLM/EF, of course with the traditional Anglican prayers etc.

Anglicans have always had beautiful music and hymns and the Anglo Catholic parishes sang Marian songs. There is also another video on Our Lady of the Atonement website, I think it was a Marian feast day. If you go to “videos of Novus Ordo Latin” or something similar there is one in six parts of the OF sang in Latin at OLA school and short clips of other ones on the web. One is a processional with Cardinal Gomez being the celebrant of an AU liturgy.

I think for those Catholics who are interested in a liturgy close to the EF, but want it in the vernacular, an Anglican Use Mass would meet their needs.

In time there might be some AU parishes in NY. I can’t recall of any being established there, however, once the Ordinariate is in place there might be many former Anglicans who follow and start a parish/mission. Seeds are being planted in several states. I am in California and there are only 3 I am aware of and are far from me. Keep it in your prayers, as the priests coming in with large families will need them. They are leaving behind their security and trusting in the Lord to take care of them.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[MarkThompson]

Can anyone tell me what that song is at about 27:20 to 27:45? It is absolutely gorgeous.

It is just Psalm 118:16-17, set to the standard psalm tone for mode VIII.

 

[TrueLight]

It is just Psalm 118:16-17, set to the standard psalm tone for mode VIII.

Awesome. Thank you!

 

[ProVobis]

It may not be as pleasurable for me to sing in my lowest register. but that’s okay. As long as we SING.

If I can put my one penny’s worth in here, there didn’t seem to be a problem when songs like “Immaculate Mary,” “Come Holy Ghost” or “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” were sung, even before the 60’s. But then these were considered “Catholic.” (Ok, they might have been originally Anglican.) And they were sung even without an organ. Introduce the Protestant hymns (I presume it’s in the public domain) or the new translation stuff or unfamiliar tunes and it’s a whole new matter. What may be lacking is Catholic identity with the music. And what makes it a little tougher is that everyone is expected to be familiar with it or they’re expected to read it, while at the same time they preach about listening rather than reading. And isn’t it easier to sing something more familiar and only one verse of it?

When you have a choir or even a cantor, there’s a different psychology in play. The congregation seems to feel less important (musically) so the chances of getting everyone to sing ALONG are further reduced. After all, they’ve rehearsed the pieces and you haven’t. So how are you expected to sing along with the motets or other classical pieces such as Palestrina or Bach? You’re not.

 

[TrueLight]

If I can put my one penny’s worth in here, there didn’t seem to be a problem when songs like “Immaculate Mary,” “Come Holy Ghost” or “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” were sung, even before the 60’s. But then these were considered “Catholic.” (Ok, they might have been originally Anglican.) And they were sung even without an organ. Introduce the Protestant hymns (I presume it’s in the public domain) or the new translation stuff or unfamiliar tunes and it’s a whole new matter. What may be lacking is Catholic identity with the music. And what makes it a little tougher is that everyone is expected to be familiar with it or they’re expected to read it, while at the same time they preach about listening rather than reading. And isn’t it easier to sing something more familiar and only one verse of it?

When you have a choir or even a cantor, there’s a different psychology in play. The congregation seems to feel less important (musically) so the chances of getting everyone to sing ALONG are further reduced. After all, they’ve rehearsed the pieces and you haven’t. So how are you expected to sing along with the motets or other classical pieces such as Palestrina or Bach? You’re not.

I think it could be made easier for the people to know what they are supposed to sing and what is a piece meant for the choir to sing.

For example, one parish hands out a little order of mass flyer at their TLM and some sections say “sung by the congregation”.

I think a lot of it is confusion over which songs are meant for us to listen to and which songs are meant for us to follow along. I wouldn’t start singing along to Bach although I probably could because I have sung a lot of the music in my choir.

By the way, as much as I’m going on about singing, one of my pet peeves are people who sing along to great classical pieces in the pews, while the choir is singing. This choir was singing Duruffle’s “Ubi Caritas” and there was a woman (obviously with choral singing experience), who was singing along loudly!

 

[ProVobis]

By the way, as much as I’m going on about singing, one of my pet peeves are people who sing along to great classical pieces in the pews, while the choir is singing. This choir was singing Duruffle’s “Ubi Caritas” and there was a woman (obviously with choral singing experience), who was singing along loudly!

So what score did the judges give her?

 

[TrueLight]

So what score did the judges give her?

A 5/10.

I’m just saying that sometimes listening to something beautiful is conducive to worship. There is a time and place for everything.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

By the way, as much as I’m going on about singing, one of my pet peeves are people who sing along to great classical pieces in the pews, while the choir is singing. This choir was singing Duruffle’s “Ubi Caritas” and there was a woman (obviously with choral singing experience), who was singing along loudly!

Catholic Music Ministry is never supposed to be a performance, so at no time should it be “wrong” for a Catholic to sing from the pew.

 

[ClamDigger]

I am watching the royal wedding and I am amazed at how everyone sings the hymns. No matter how religious they are or not, it is in the Church of England culture to sing apparently.

Is there anyway to get hymns sung on a regular basis at masses? Or is that considered a Protestant thing?

I know Anglican Use masses exist. Does anyone attend a Roman Catholic Parish that sings?

Well, there are hymns that may be sung at the parish I regularly attend, but I generally do not join in just because I generally do not like the hymns that are chosen by the choir.
For example, at the Good Friday Communion service this year, the missal suggested that during the adoration of the Cross a hymn celebrating Mary’s compassion (co-suffering) be sung, but instead the choir chose to sing “Were You There When They Crucified My Lord?”. I was kind of upset that they ignored the missal and, consequently, Mary’s suffering at the foot of the Cross, and therefore didn’t join in singing it.

 

[TrueLight]

Catholic Music Ministry is never supposed to be a performance, so at no time should it be “wrong” for a Catholic to sing from the pew.

As I said

I’m just saying that sometimes listening to something beautiful is conducive to worship. There is a time and place for everything.

Also, 1 Corinthians 14:40.
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

My opinion.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m just saying that sometimes listening to something beautiful is conducive to worship.

Precisely. One’s participation in any event, especially in praying the Mass, has to include listening and watching attentively. Sitting still can be prayerful in itself.