W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
Sitting still can be prayerful, but someone else may be more moved to sing along and that’s allowed.
- Status
C
Cat
Guest
I appreciate that you disagree in a friendly way. I will try to do the same.I would like to disagree in part, and in a friendlyway. Yes, the “everlasting is thy reign” in “Holy God we Praise Thy Name” asks a lot of a male singer. But you know, if you can’t hit the highest two notes, you can let them go and join back in when it comes down. On the other hand when “Eagles’ Wings” goes into that “the snare of the fowler…” part, I don’t know that anybody but John Denver could have stayed with that. (Besides, it’s too “busy”)
I LOVE to sing in church, and I do. I was never trained professionally, but I sang in choirs, madrigals, quartets, with accompaniment and a capella, in high school and in college. I can read music and have, at some point, sung every male part from bass to first tenor. Taught my children to sing harmony with me. I developed a lot of diaphragmatic breath support and a pretty fair range. I don’t care if people think I’m silly or not. I love to sing, and I’ll do it, and it carries.
(continued)
I took a look at “On Eagle’s Wings” in the current Gather Hymnal. The high note at the very beginning is a C sharp. This is not a high note. It may be a high note for some people, but musically speaking, it is NOT a high note and anyone who knows how to sing SHOULD be able to hit this note.
The alto range is traditionally G below middle C up to and including the D above high C. The C sharp in “Eagles Wings” is at the top of this alto range, but it is still considered “alto” range. (Same for basses, but a octave lower.)
BTW, for those who don’t know, alto and bass are the “low” voices, while soprano and tenor are the “high” voices. Treble is a child’s voice. Cambiata is a young man’s voice that is changing.
If a person knows how to sing correctly, they should be able to hit the C sharp, in a soft, head tone, unless they have a head cold or allergies. It might not sound like opera, but we SHOULD be able to hit the note. ALL of us who are well and abled, even the cambiata voice, SHOULD be able to hit this note!
Many of the 70s folk hymns in the Gather Hymnal seldom if ever go out of the alto/bass range. However, the traditional hymns often go above this range, even as high as the E or F above high C–a challenge for untrained altos and basses, and very difficult for cambiata.
So I continue to respectfully but firmly disagree with those who insist that a singer has to be a soprano or tenor to hit the notes in the folk hymns.
We just have to know how to sing correctly.
So…are we willing to learn to sing correctly, or are we going to continue to insist that “the notes are too high?” In other words, blame something else for our own fault.
Keep in mind that if we learn to sing correctly, the traditional hymns, not just the folk hymns, will be easier for us to sing well.
(continued next post)
C
Cat
Guest
(continued from last post)
Secondly, we must keep in mind that we are talking about CORPORATE singing, not solo singing or cantoring. Corporate singing is working TOGETHER to create a beautiful piece of music for our edification, and for the glory of the Lord.
**Corporate singing does not necessarily mean that ALL voices shall join in at the same time on the same melody. **
If only we could grasp and embrace that statement and get the idea that corporate singing is working TOGETHER!
But then, Christians generally have a difficult time doing anything “together” these days, don’t we? We can’t even agree on the life issues or the best ways to help the poor. It’s no wonder that we can’t sing together, which, when you think about it, is an “intimate” act that involves our whole bodies.
When it comes to singing corporately, here are a few things to keep in mind.
First, it is just fine, in fact, much more pleasant for most of us, to allow the high voices to sing out in full voice during the high parts, while the low voices back off and sing falsetto, or wait their turn silently and then join in when the melody line moves back down into a lower register. Or vice versa–the high voices stay in the background during the low parts of the melody.
I think that songs that allow both the high voices and the low voices to be showcased are excellent songs, the most fun to sing corporately. The best example of such a song is the National Anthem of the United States, “The Star Spangled Banner.” If only we could grasp the idea that all of us who have lower voices should really sing out at the beginning of our anthem, and then back off during that high part in the middle and let the high voices sing out!
This is what corporate singing is all about–working together, each allowing the other to do the part which they are best suited to do, and then doing our part when it is our turn.
That’s what life should be like–we all do our part and do it well, and we don’t get upset because we can’t do someone else’s part, or because they have a moment when they can do a part better than we can, or because we have to wait our turn to do our part.
Second, there are those things called “parts”–the soprano, alto, tenor, bass, and occasionally descant or treble lines.
**Unfortunately, it seems that the Catholic publishing houses have declared musical parts anathema. **
I think that one thing that would be of immense help in encouraging Catholics to sing during Mass would be to publish the PARTS in the pew missallettes or hymnals.
That way, both low and high voices could sing in a comfortable range.
This assumes, of course, that we know how to read music, which most people don’t, so this whole section of my comments is utter and pathetic nonsense and I am wasting my time to write it.
However, let’s continue this idea, and pretend that many people DO know how to read music, but they’re just not doing it for some reason. I can dream, can’t I?
I suspect that many of the folk hymns don’t have parts written, other than for choir arrangments, which are a bit much for most people in the pews to sight-read.
After all, folk hymns are generally simple melodies that we are all supposed to join in together while sitting around a campfire or riding a bus. They’re supposed to “unify” us and bring us together. And they used to do that–I can remember a lot of bus rides singing “Puff the Magic Dragon” and “Blowin’ in the Wind” with my friends, and feeling all peaceful and one with the universe back when we were 16 years old!
Nowadays, Facebook unifies us. And we don’t sing together on Facebook, do we? Sad.
But forget the “unity” aspect of folk songs. Let’s continue talking about “parts.”
We all know that it is possible to have parts for folk hymns, because we hear artists like Peter, Paul, and Mary, and Simon and Garfunkel, harmonize beautifully in their folk songs. So it’s possible.
But we need those parts written out. And like I said, that’s apparently something not possible from Catholic publishing houses.
(continued next post)
Secondly, we must keep in mind that we are talking about CORPORATE singing, not solo singing or cantoring. Corporate singing is working TOGETHER to create a beautiful piece of music for our edification, and for the glory of the Lord.
**Corporate singing does not necessarily mean that ALL voices shall join in at the same time on the same melody. **
If only we could grasp and embrace that statement and get the idea that corporate singing is working TOGETHER!
But then, Christians generally have a difficult time doing anything “together” these days, don’t we? We can’t even agree on the life issues or the best ways to help the poor. It’s no wonder that we can’t sing together, which, when you think about it, is an “intimate” act that involves our whole bodies.
When it comes to singing corporately, here are a few things to keep in mind.
First, it is just fine, in fact, much more pleasant for most of us, to allow the high voices to sing out in full voice during the high parts, while the low voices back off and sing falsetto, or wait their turn silently and then join in when the melody line moves back down into a lower register. Or vice versa–the high voices stay in the background during the low parts of the melody.
I think that songs that allow both the high voices and the low voices to be showcased are excellent songs, the most fun to sing corporately. The best example of such a song is the National Anthem of the United States, “The Star Spangled Banner.” If only we could grasp the idea that all of us who have lower voices should really sing out at the beginning of our anthem, and then back off during that high part in the middle and let the high voices sing out!
This is what corporate singing is all about–working together, each allowing the other to do the part which they are best suited to do, and then doing our part when it is our turn.
That’s what life should be like–we all do our part and do it well, and we don’t get upset because we can’t do someone else’s part, or because they have a moment when they can do a part better than we can, or because we have to wait our turn to do our part.
Second, there are those things called “parts”–the soprano, alto, tenor, bass, and occasionally descant or treble lines.
**Unfortunately, it seems that the Catholic publishing houses have declared musical parts anathema. **
I think that one thing that would be of immense help in encouraging Catholics to sing during Mass would be to publish the PARTS in the pew missallettes or hymnals.
That way, both low and high voices could sing in a comfortable range.
This assumes, of course, that we know how to read music, which most people don’t, so this whole section of my comments is utter and pathetic nonsense and I am wasting my time to write it.
However, let’s continue this idea, and pretend that many people DO know how to read music, but they’re just not doing it for some reason. I can dream, can’t I?
I suspect that many of the folk hymns don’t have parts written, other than for choir arrangments, which are a bit much for most people in the pews to sight-read.
After all, folk hymns are generally simple melodies that we are all supposed to join in together while sitting around a campfire or riding a bus. They’re supposed to “unify” us and bring us together. And they used to do that–I can remember a lot of bus rides singing “Puff the Magic Dragon” and “Blowin’ in the Wind” with my friends, and feeling all peaceful and one with the universe back when we were 16 years old!
Nowadays, Facebook unifies us. And we don’t sing together on Facebook, do we? Sad.
But forget the “unity” aspect of folk songs. Let’s continue talking about “parts.”
We all know that it is possible to have parts for folk hymns, because we hear artists like Peter, Paul, and Mary, and Simon and Garfunkel, harmonize beautifully in their folk songs. So it’s possible.
But we need those parts written out. And like I said, that’s apparently something not possible from Catholic publishing houses.
(continued next post)
C
Cat
Guest
(continued from last post)
Third—and this is the most important part of my comments–even if a person cannot hit high notes for whatever reason, and cannot sing parts for whatever reason, they can still join in the hymn as an "enthusiastic listener."
Many people in the Catholic Church do not sing and it is OBVIOUS to all that they are not singing. They make it obvious by their demeanor.
Sadly, all too often, it appears to all around them that they utterly despise the hymn or song, as they stand stone-faced or even scowling, NOT EVEN BOTHERING TO OPEN THE HYMNAL AND FOLLOW ALONG WITH THE WORDS!!!
Yes, I mean for that to be all caps, because it makes me ANGRY to see grownups act like impolite little children!
In Protestant churches, when someone does not know the words, or can’t sing the song for some reason, they still join in the WORSHIP by listening with all their heart.
They smile (or look solemn or even cry, depending on what the hymn/song is about). They may sway slightly or close their eyes and keep a rapt expression on their faces. In Pentecostal churches, they will raise their hands.
And no, it’s not just a “show.”
If there is a hymnal (rare nowadays in many Protestant churches–most use overheads projected onto a screen, or powerpoint), they will follow along with the words so that they can read and understand the message that the hymn/song is trying to convey.
I think that this is something that Catholics need to learn to do.
Even if a person chooses, for some reason that seems sensible to them at the time, not to sing a hymn/song, they can at least, out of politeness if nothing else, open the hymnal or missallette and follow the words and attempt to learn something about God, even if, in their own wise opinion, they already know everything about God and have no need to learn from a St. Louis Jesuit or a heretical Protestant “entertainer” or a “folk” composer.
I personally find it off-putting and disturbing when people don’t even bother to open the hymnal and follow the words. It is arrogant and prideful, lazy and stubborn, and an extremely poor example for children and younger people. It is a poor witness to non-Catholics who might be attending Mass that day. It is insulting to the Church, as someone in the Church (the bishop) has at some point approved of the hymns in that hymnal or missallette and allowed them to be sung in the Mass–in spite of all the myths, there still are no “Banned Lists” of hymns and songs in the U.S. for Mass music. It is insolent to the parish priest and his staff, who selected that particular hymn or song for that particular moment in the Mass and when they made that selection, they were, presumably, guided by the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of God.
I hope that these comments about corporate singing are thought-provoking to all who read them.
Third—and this is the most important part of my comments–even if a person cannot hit high notes for whatever reason, and cannot sing parts for whatever reason, they can still join in the hymn as an "enthusiastic listener."
Many people in the Catholic Church do not sing and it is OBVIOUS to all that they are not singing. They make it obvious by their demeanor.
Sadly, all too often, it appears to all around them that they utterly despise the hymn or song, as they stand stone-faced or even scowling, NOT EVEN BOTHERING TO OPEN THE HYMNAL AND FOLLOW ALONG WITH THE WORDS!!!
Yes, I mean for that to be all caps, because it makes me ANGRY to see grownups act like impolite little children!
In Protestant churches, when someone does not know the words, or can’t sing the song for some reason, they still join in the WORSHIP by listening with all their heart.
They smile (or look solemn or even cry, depending on what the hymn/song is about). They may sway slightly or close their eyes and keep a rapt expression on their faces. In Pentecostal churches, they will raise their hands.
And no, it’s not just a “show.”
If there is a hymnal (rare nowadays in many Protestant churches–most use overheads projected onto a screen, or powerpoint), they will follow along with the words so that they can read and understand the message that the hymn/song is trying to convey.
I think that this is something that Catholics need to learn to do.
Even if a person chooses, for some reason that seems sensible to them at the time, not to sing a hymn/song, they can at least, out of politeness if nothing else, open the hymnal or missallette and follow the words and attempt to learn something about God, even if, in their own wise opinion, they already know everything about God and have no need to learn from a St. Louis Jesuit or a heretical Protestant “entertainer” or a “folk” composer.
I personally find it off-putting and disturbing when people don’t even bother to open the hymnal and follow the words. It is arrogant and prideful, lazy and stubborn, and an extremely poor example for children and younger people. It is a poor witness to non-Catholics who might be attending Mass that day. It is insulting to the Church, as someone in the Church (the bishop) has at some point approved of the hymns in that hymnal or missallette and allowed them to be sung in the Mass–in spite of all the myths, there still are no “Banned Lists” of hymns and songs in the U.S. for Mass music. It is insolent to the parish priest and his staff, who selected that particular hymn or song for that particular moment in the Mass and when they made that selection, they were, presumably, guided by the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of God.
I hope that these comments about corporate singing are thought-provoking to all who read them.
P
ProVobis
Guest
One can say that chewing gum is “allowed” too but making a spectacle of yourself or drawing attention to yourself or trying to show up or disturbing others doesn’t have a place within the Mass. Sorry.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
If it’s a time when you’re allowed to sing, then singing is fine. More Catholics should be singing along to begin with. My point was more that choirs should not be highlighting themself in such a way that the Congregation feels out of place if they sing along. It’s not supposed to be a performance group.
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
I would agree that members of the Congregation should not be purposely drawing attention to themself (i.e. I’ve had training so I’m going to belt out like an opera singer so everybody hears me). Also, I’d want to smack someone chewing gum in church 
However, I’ve been in churches where you know you should be singing, but you stick out because the particular parish won’t even open the book to follow along, so you try to still participate and are forced to sing really quietly because nobody is singing along (even when the choir specificly invited all to join in and gave the number of the song).
In cases when I’m not singing in the choir (rare), I may stop singing during the meditation after receiving the eucharist, but I would never fault someone who chooses to sing then.
However, I’ve been in churches where you know you should be singing, but you stick out because the particular parish won’t even open the book to follow along, so you try to still participate and are forced to sing really quietly because nobody is singing along (even when the choir specificly invited all to join in and gave the number of the song).In cases when I’m not singing in the choir (rare), I may stop singing during the meditation after receiving the eucharist, but I would never fault someone who chooses to sing then.
T
TrueLight
Guest
I’m not sayiing some choirs don’t show off. I have been part of a choir that received Grammys and trust me, it was a struggle to remain humble.
So far in my very limited experience going to traditional masses, the choirs are in the back. I can’t even focus on individual people.
t
I think a choir has a vital place in worship. Give honor where honor is due. There is nothing wrong with being appreciative.
In 2nd Chronicles when the Israelites were going to war, King Jehoshaphat:
For now, I have no intention of joining a Choir in the Catholic Church. I think I’ll just listen.
But when it’s time for the people to sing, we should SING!!!
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
It’s always difficult balance with Catholic Music Ministry. Of course, if the music is good, people will often come up and comment on it and it’s okay if they enjoyed it because beautiful music does assist in prayer. I wasn’t there to listen to the lady who was singing loudly in her pew, so I can’t say if she was trying to be obnoxious or not. I was thinking it could have been very innocent on her part (she knew the hymn, liked it, usually Catholics are supposed to participate in all hymns). I just know I’ve been in situation where people might have thought that of me because I’ve had voice lessons and in some Masses, people just don’t participate.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I know that Catholics are supposed to participate in Mass music, like the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc. (Suggested by Jubilate Deo.) I’m not quite sure if they are required to sing music that is not remotely connected with Mass or the readings, and I can make a case that most of the music isn’t.
P
peanutproduct
Guest
I enjoy singing at church, but I have noticed that many people prefer to listen. I think I’d estimate that maybe 65-75% of the people sing at the church I attend. I find it easiest to sing when the priest joins in (and the microphone is on) or someone near me is singing loudly.
Often I actually find the newer folk-music-sounding songs easier to sing, but also enjoy when something is selected that is familiar.
Often I actually find the newer folk-music-sounding songs easier to sing, but also enjoy when something is selected that is familiar.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I agree. When the music is meant for congregational singing, then I want to hear the congregation sing and I want to hear them sing fully to the point where they almost drown out the organ. People should sing when it is an actual hymn or other music specifically written for congregation, even if the choir is singing in harmony. I love that because then I can sing the harmony if I know it already (since Catholic congregational hymnals don’t provide harmonies for their hymns). If it is a piece composed specifically for choir, though, such as a motet, it is not meant to be sung by the congregation, but to be more of a spiritually meditative piece for the congregation and, as you mention, gives a certain kind of honor and praise to God.
Because I have sung in many choirs, I know a lot of the choral repertoire. Most of the time, when I’m in the congregation, I’m very happy to just listen. It helps me focus and pray deeper. But sometimes I want to sing with along. I don’t, because I know that it would sound utterly ridiculous for me to be the only person in the pews singing out loud along to pieces like these below (all of which were regular motets prayed at my previous parish), not to mention it would just bring attention to myself since I’m a professional classical singer.
Bruckner “Locus iste”
youtube.com/watch?v=pxUpM7lPmwk&feature=related
Palestrina’s “Sicut Cervus”
youtube.com/watch?v=-5AHZzZk-Ho&feature=related
Tallis’ “If Ye Love Me” and “A New Commandment”
youtube.com/watch?v=yxfsAEqsebo
Tchesnokov “Salvation is Created”
youtube.com/watch?v=Fo3ytnv8lh4&feature=related
Gabrielli “Maria Magdalena”
youtube.com/watch?v=20JeLZ9UYqk
Monteverdi “Cantate Domino”
youtube.com/watch?v=8iR-OUOa_dc
Victoria “O Magnum mysterium”
youtube.com/watch?v=zeKvNxYMDxE
Durufle’s choral setting of “Ubi caritas” youtube.com/watch?v=KwR_dM-1MlU
that I believe you were talking about regarding the woman is a motet meant for choir… not the congregation, but I can see how someone in the congregation may not have realized that because Durufle incorporates the chant into the piece.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Yes! That’s exactly what I mean.
I could tell the woman was a trained singer and a choir singer as well. She came across as showing off, frankly.
Wow, that one is lovely. I have only sung Hassler’s version
By the way, on Good Friday, the choir sang the above version. I happened to be sitting next to a friend I sing in a choir with and she was singing the song loud and proud while the choir was singing. I really had to bite my tongue.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I’m not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but I think another reason why people may not sing is sometimes because of the cantor… and I’m saying this as a cantor. When I cantor, I try to stay as far away from the microphone as possible, especially for the congregational pieces. I only want to be there for support if needed. Often, I’ve observed cantors who sing too close to the mic, even when they have large voices, so that they drown out the rest of the congregation. That really isn’t good. I believe many of these cantors just don’t realize what they’re doing is incorrect, so if a music director or someone else showed them what to do, that problem can be rectified fairly quickly.
On the other hand, there are wannabe divas (and I think many cantors have experienced them) who won’t listen to their directors about this. I remember one parish I cantored at, the director worked really hard with his cantors about not being too close to the microphone, etc. because we were there to lead, not be a soloist. Well, there were a number of divas and divos who became very irate about this. They wanted to be heard. Funny thing is, they were people who had little or no training and were thoroughly ticked off at the director even telling them this. Interesting how egos can get in the way.
Another reason the congregational singing may not be too good, is poor musicianship from the musicians, themselves. Or not supporting the congregation enough with the sound from the instruments. If it’s too loud, some congregations won’t sing, if it is too weak, people won’t sing because they’ll feel naked. For organs, it doesn’t have to be bombastic, but should have a full sound so that the congregation will feel supported and have the confidence to sing out.
On the other hand, there are wannabe divas (and I think many cantors have experienced them) who won’t listen to their directors about this. I remember one parish I cantored at, the director worked really hard with his cantors about not being too close to the microphone, etc. because we were there to lead, not be a soloist. Well, there were a number of divas and divos who became very irate about this. They wanted to be heard. Funny thing is, they were people who had little or no training and were thoroughly ticked off at the director even telling them this. Interesting how egos can get in the way.
Another reason the congregational singing may not be too good, is poor musicianship from the musicians, themselves. Or not supporting the congregation enough with the sound from the instruments. If it’s too loud, some congregations won’t sing, if it is too weak, people won’t sing because they’ll feel naked. For organs, it doesn’t have to be bombastic, but should have a full sound so that the congregation will feel supported and have the confidence to sing out.
T
TrueLight
Guest
S
Sarabande
Guest
I’ve always loved the Monteverdi setting. It was something I looked forward to singing every year which seemed to be during the Easter season. I also like the Hassler, which our choir also sang.
I think sometimes when choir people do that, they may not realize that it could ruin the meditative experience of the others around them who are listening and allowing the prayer wash over them and through them. Most of the time (in mostly older Catholic churches) these choral works are sung from behind and above in a choir loft, so it almost seems like you are hearing angels singing from the heavens since you can’t see them and can only hear them. To me, it takes me to another spiritual plane. My focus and prayer is deeper. When a lone person is singing along, it kind of brings me back down.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I’ve never heard the cantor on EWTN, but that may be more of the sound engineer for the televised broadcast, rather than what is actually happening there. I know when I’ve watched masses from our Cathedral on television, the sound is completely different than what it’s like in person. For instance, the last mass I attended there, you could barely hear the cantor in the cathedral. But on the broadcast, it sounded like she was the only one singing and that she was incredibly loud. In reality, she wasn’t.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Yes, I read that it’s the most popular instrument at ball parks and indoor stadiums as it’s been proven to get most to sing to it. Unlike vocalists who either have silence around them or a screaming crowd (like at the Chicago Stadium).
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
I do love it when a parish is blessed with an organ player!
T
TrueLight
Guest
I went to a TLM today where there was very little singing. I said to myself, “Not another one”. I did find out afterward that the TLM has only been in existence for a year, so people are still learning.
We sang the Credo today and I was trying to listen out for the parts where the church sings but because I could not hear anyone, I just sang the whole thing softly.
We sang the Credo today and I was trying to listen out for the parts where the church sings but because I could not hear anyone, I just sang the whole thing softly.
- Status