Can We Get Catholics to Sing?

[Ridgerunner]

I appreciate that you disagree in a friendly way. I will try to do the same.

I took a look at “On Eagle’s Wings” in the current Gather Hymnal. The high note at the very beginning is a C sharp. This is not a high note. It may be a high note for some people, but musically speaking, it is NOT a high note and anyone who knows how to sing SHOULD be able to hit this note.

I am confident that most males would disagree with you on this. It might not be a high note, musically speaking, but it’s too high for most male voices. All you have to know in order to know that is to listen to a congregation in which there are WILLING males. Sing some hymns, and they join in…do something like “On Eagles Wings” and they don’t. I’ll grant that the lyrics are a bit strange and that might have something to do with it as well. “…the snare of the fowler…” Who says stuff like that? Who, in his private prayer, talks about being raised up on eagles’ wings? I can’t speak for women, but to me, that’s not exactly “male psyche” stuff.

Some on here have said favorable things about Anglican hymns. I’m not sure what all they are as distinguished from, say, American-made protestant hymns or even German hymns that are more or less translated into English.

Now, I don’t hate all 1970s and 1980s faux folk songs, but most of them leave me pretty cold. One might think of it this way. There are reasons why, for example, some literature and some artworks stand the test of time and why some are “niche works” and really don’t. The Anglicans (and German Protestants, for that matter) have been at this hymn business for a long, long time. Here in the U.S., most Catholics are descended from non English speakers, though some Irish and a very few English Catholics would be exceptions. But even then, most Catholic hymns were in Latin. We’re kind of new at vernacular hymns in English; certainly newer at it than the Anglicans are.

Right after Vatican II, there was this scramble to get together a volume of hymns in the vernacular. Obviously, most of that happened in the 1970s and very early 1980s. Just look at the copyright dates for most of them. One really gets the feeling a lot of those were slam-banged together in order to meet printing deadlines. Some seem to have been written for small groups. But regardless, they’re virtually all from a narrow period in time, are of a particular genre, and really haven’t stood the test of time if popularity is any yardstick.

How many people now voluntarily listen to, or sing 1970s folk songs in any other context? Virtually none. I see no reason why the Church should close itself up in the period pieces we face repeatedly now at Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Right after Vatican II, there was this scramble to get together a volume of hymns in the vernacular. Obviously, most of that happened in the 1970s and very early 1980s. Just look at the copyright dates for most of them. One really gets the feeling a lot of those were slam-banged together in order to meet printing deadlines. Some seem to have been written for small groups. But regardless, they’re virtually all from a narrow period in time, are of a particular genre, and really haven’t stood the test of time if popularity is any yardstick.

You bring up some good points. It seems as if you have to have a stable liturgy (or language) to have the incentive of providing a long-lasting piece of music suited for it. Would Bach, Palestrina, Mozart have been inspired to write for the Mass as soon as the copyrighted text came off some ICEL-press? Or if they knew it would only change every forty years or so? I doubt it. Theirs wasn’t the type of music that one wrote to make the top 40 for just a few weeks or months.

 

[puzzleannie]

have to say I really enjoyed the little side trip about the lady in the pew singing --beautifully by PP’s account–which annoyed the choir no end because they were performing. I am quite sure of somebody kindly points out that faux pas to the lady in question we can rack up one more Catholic who won’t be singing at all any more.

 

[Sarabande]

have to say I really enjoyed the little side trip about the lady in the pew singing --beautifully by PP’s account–which annoyed the choir no end because they were performing. I am quite sure of somebody kindly points out that faux pas to the lady in question we can rack up one more Catholic who won’t be singing at all any more.

I don’t think the PP said it annoyed the choir. I believed it annoyed the people in the pews, or at least one person in the pew because the piece was a choral motet and not a congregational hymn or mass part. Most of the time, when you’re in the choir, you don’t really hear what’s going on outside of the choir loft since you’re surrounded by other people singing. I know when I was in the choir, the only time I’d hear something was if there was screaming or if the priest was chanting along with his mic on. Even then, though, you’re so focused on praying the music while you’re singing, you often don’t even pay attention to that.

 

[MarkThompson]

I am confident that most males would disagree with you on this. It might not be a high note, musically speaking, but it’s too high for most male voices. All you have to know in order to know that is to listen to a congregation in which there are WILLING males. Sing some hymns, and they join in…do something like “On Eagles Wings” and they don’t. I’ll grant that the lyrics are a bit strange and that might have something to do with it as well. “…the snare of the fowler…” Who says stuff like that? Who, in his private prayer, talks about being raised up on eagles’ wings? I can’t speak for women, but to me, that’s not exactly “male psyche” stuff.

I meant to make this point when you or somebody else set out similar criticisms earlier: you do realize that On Eagle’s Wings is a relatively close lyrical paraphrase of Psalm 90 (91), don’t you? Here’s the psalm in the translation from the RSV-CE:
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, who abides in the shadow of the Almighty,
2 will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust.”
3 For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence;
4 he will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
5 You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not come near you.
8 You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the LORD your refuge, * the Most High your habitation,
10 no evil shall befall you, no scourge come near your tent.
11 For he will give his angels charge of you to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the adder, the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot.
14 Because he cleaves to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.
15 When he calls to me, I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will rescue him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him, and show him my salvation.
So if the question is “who sings this lame-o stuff about the snare of the fowler, anyway,” then your answer is “King David, and everyone in history who has ever sung the Psalms or prayed the Divine Office.” Please read the psalm above and then compare to the verses of Eagle’s Wings:
You who dwell in the shelter of the Lord,
who abide in His shadow for life,
say to the Lord: “My refuge, my rock in whom I trust!”

The snare of the fowler will never capture you,
and famine will bring you no fear:
under His wings your refuge, His faithfulness your shield.

You need not fear the terror of the night,
nor the arrow that flies by day;
though thousands fall about you, near you it shall not come.

For to His angels He’s given a command
to guard you in all of your ways;
upon their hands they will bear you up,
lest you dash your foot against a stone.
You’ll notice the change “pestilence” ⇨ “famine”, but other than that I hope you can see where Eagle’s Wings came from.

 

[cecilia97]

Echoing what other posters have said about a good organ, a good organist, and hymns that people know and that were written for humans to sing (i.e. mostly older ones). Our parish SINGS!

 

[Sarabande]

I am confident that most males would disagree with you on this. It might not be a high note, musically speaking, but it’s too high for most male voices. All you have to know in order to know that is to listen to a congregation in which there are WILLING males. Sing some hymns, and they join in…do something like “On Eagles Wings” and they don’t. **I’ll grant that the lyrics are a bit strange and that might have something to do with it as well. “…the snare of the fowler…” Who says stuff like that? **Who, in his private prayer, talks about being raised up on eagles’ wings? I can’t speak for women, but to me, that’s not exactly “male psyche” stuff.

As much as I am personally not wild about the piece for liturgy, the text is actually from scripture: Ex. 19-4 and Ps 91.

Not sure if you saw my previous post #40, but this is how I analyzed the hymn and found lacking in it for easy singing.

Next, “On Eagle’s Wings” - Again, each verse is different rhythmically. The major problem I find with this hymn are the intervals for the untrained voice to sing. The vocal range is all over the place. So you start the voice off towards the upper range of a typical untrained voice for the first two measures of the first verse. Then on the last beat of the second measure it does an octave jump from D4 to D5. That isn’t easy to accomplish well with an untrained voice. For the female voice, the lower D sits more in their chest voice and the higher D sits more in their head voice. It’s easier to navigate the change from the chest to head voice when there is a gradual progression of notes in between, but to make the voice jump without having those transition notes can ask a lot for one who is untrained voice.

Then the refrain. Where the verse starts in the upper part of a typical person’s natural register, the refrain begins in the lower part of the register. I’ve found for a lot of people, although they “love” this hymn, they can’t sing this part or at least can’t sing it well. Although the interval isn’t as wide to sing, because “And he will” sits very low (at least for most female voices), to ask one’s voice to then jump to the E can make the voice sound a little shaky or make that “breaking” sound or yodel in the voice.

So, although it is within the vocal range of a typical untrained singer (many people, including men, can sing other hymns with similar vocal range) the problem lies more with how it is composed to accomplish singing the piece. A composer has to know who he/she is composing for. If it was for a trained singer, then this piece would have been no problem. I’ll give my example again of when my husband first started composing art songs. He thought because the work was within the range of a mezzo, it was fine, but he didn’t think about other aspects of the voice to take into account. The tessitura for one. Even though my range can go from a low F below middle C to a high D (D6), that doesn’t mean I should be singing continuously up in the stratosphere (typical and easy for sopranos) or continuously down in my lowest part of my range (typical and easy for a alto/contralto.)

 

[PiousTemplar]

That’s a pretty unfair comparison if you ask me. You compare the westminster abbey during a Royal Wedding with the common Catholic Parish. Perhaps this Mass is a more fair comparison:

youtube.com/watch?v=OCeiolKGl08

 

[Ridgerunner]

I meant to make this point when you or somebody else set out similar criticisms earlier: you do realize that On Eagle’s Wings is a relatively close lyrical paraphrase of Psalm 90 (91), don’t you? .

Sure. And there are plenty of other bits out of the Bible that wouldn’t make for good church hymns as well. I am aware that psalms were almost certainly sung, originally. But the context was entirely different, and they were no doubt sung in whole, to and by people who, to return to the song in question, were familiar with the imagery as a commonplace. I do not pretend to artistic expertise, but I would at least suggest that hymns need to be written for what they are; very short pieces to be sung in liturgies. And now, of course, by congregations, to whom they ought to make sense and have relevance to the prayer of the Mass just as they are.

I have some experience in speechwriting and story writing, and you don’t expect a snippet from some much longer explication to work on its own. You have to know the audience; its knowledge background and its idiom, the amount of time (or space) allotted, and the precise point you’re trying to get across. From the first word to the last, it has to stand on its own, and the thought (and the point) has to be full and complete by the end.

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t think the PP said it annoyed the choir. I believed it annoyed the people in the pews, or at least one person in the pew because the piece was a choral motet and not a congregational hymn or mass part. Most of the time, when you’re in the choir, you don’t really hear what’s going on outside of the choir loft since you’re surrounded by other people singing. I know when I was in the choir, the only time I’d hear something was if there was screaming or if the priest was chanting along with his mic on. Even then, though, you’re so focused on praying the music while you’re singing, you often don’t even pay attention to that.

yes and if you are lucky enough to have a choir that does that kind of singing, which specifically excludes the congregation (which is what many of us grew up with) you will train the congregation not to sing.

 

[MichelleByrne]

Become Byzantine Catholic and learn chant! Our church sounds amazing!!!

 

[Sarabande]

My point was that it wasn’t the choir who was peeved by it. Choir members don’t usually have the time or the focus to pay attention to things like that coming from the pews. Otherwise, your not paying attention to the prayer in the piece of music, nor paying attention to singing the music correctly. Singers with the right frame of mind also don’t think of what they are singing as a “performance”. They are there to help a congregation sing when appropriate and to add to the spiritual prayer when it is a motet.

yes and if you are lucky enough to have a choir that does that kind of singing, which specifically excludes the congregation (which is what many of us grew up with) you will train the congregation not to sing.

In some regards, yes, this could be true, especially with older people who grew up with this, but it’s not necessarily true all around. Although, I know enough older people (50+) who have the fortune of choirs in their parishes and they still sing when there is a hymn or mass part. In my previous parish where we were blessed to have a good choir, there was a mix of congregational singing and choral singing. The congregation sang very well when there were hymns, mass parts, etc. And often there were many visitors - sometimes more than parishioners. And people sang. The only things visitors may not have sung as well was when we had the bi-weekly OF Latin masses, so they didn’t know the chants or knew how to read music in the booklets to sing the chants like the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, etc. since most parishes don’t do these chants. Although the regular church attendees there did sing. At another parish, where we had the same kind of setup with a choir, although mostly all parishioners and no Latin OF masses, people would sing out so well that you’d think they blow the roof off when it was congregational singing with the choir.

Again, there are many factors to why people don’t sing at mass. Having participated in enough choirs as a volunteer or a professional at various parishes around my city, it’s my experience that the congregation will sing despite the fact there may be one or two motets sung with just the choir alone. And this is for “traditional” choirs, gospel choirs (yes, even as a classical singer, I have participated in these when I was younger), P&W bands - The Life Teen masses at one of my previous parishes would do music just for the band, yet, when they had congregational stuff, the congregation will sing. I haven’t been to one since I was a teenager, though. I think good congregational singing in parishes that has a choir can depend on how well it is encouraged by the musicians, the cantors and the priests, for that matter. They will be trained to know when to sing and when not to sing.

That said, I also will not negate that for some people choral singing could be a contributing factor.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Become Byzantine Catholic and learn chant! Our church sounds amazing!!!

Not hard to believe. Listen to this! youtube.com/watch?v=-ndfJiyismM

 

[TrueLight]

Not hard to believe. Listen to this! youtube.com/watch?v=-ndfJiyismM

That sounds awesome.

But that’s a choir singing. Choirs do sing. It’s the congregation that tends to not sing!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Most people sing in our church. We have a cantor who leads, and an organist who plays. Some people don’t sing, but the majority do. I love to sing and sing with a lot of people. It’s like the angels in heaven singing praise to God.

 

[JHow]

Unfortunately, it seems that the Catholic publishing houses have declared musical parts anathema.

I think that one thing that would be of immense help in encouraging Catholics to sing during Mass would be to publish the PARTS in the pew missallettes or hymnals.

That way, both low and high voices could sing in a comfortable range.
…

Hooray for parts!

 

[Ridgerunner]

That sounds awesome.

But that’s a choir singing. Choirs do sing. It’s the congregation that tends to not sing!

Sure, but in the Eastern Churches the congregations do often sing in harmony. I have seen it and heard it.

It’s also possible for a congregation to learn a basic melody, then have a choir provide the harmony. I, myself have sometimes sung harmony with a hymn in church, all by myself. There is a parish near here where more than one person does that. Nobody minds. People like beautiful hymns and they like harmony. It’s just that too many of the songs are no good, and nobody has been taught to sing in harmony. It can be learned.

I am reminded of one Mass in a parish not too far from here. My wife and I were attending. Well, for some reason, the music director pulled a Mozart hymn. Never had been sung there before to my knowledge. People didn’t sing the first verse because they didn’t know it. But it was a simple melody, and they started joining into the second. Then, in the third, a lot of people sang. It was a beautiful, beautiful melody, and you could tell people wanted to sing it. It wasn’t in harmony, but it was a beautiful piece. People will sing something that’s melodious, with notes they can reach and with words that aren’t weird or inane.

But in too many parishes, for whatever reason, the music directors feel themselves compelled to do those awful faux folk songs from the 1970s. Again, I’ll admit that not all of even those are terrible, but most are.

 

[MarkThompson]

Sure. And there are plenty of other bits out of the Bible that wouldn’t make for good church hymns as well.

Apparently a large majority of people disagree with you, since On Eagle’s Wings has been an extremely popular hymn for over thirty years. I do notice that your first position was that its lyrics were weird and unmanly, and you’ve now retreated to the unexplained judgment that it is not “good.”

I am aware that psalms were almost certainly sung, originally. But the context was entirely different, and they were no doubt sung in whole, to and by people who, to return to the song in question, were familiar with the imagery as a commonplace. I do not pretend to artistic expertise, but I would at least suggest that hymns need to be written for what they are; very short pieces to be sung in liturgies. And now, of course, by congregations, to whom they ought to make sense and have relevance to the prayer of the Mass just as they are.

Some hymns are short and other hymns are long. No surprise; after all, some psalms are short and other psalms are long.

As to what’s “commonplace,” I hope you’re not suggesting that the messages of Scripture become strange and unusable just because modern people don’t work in vineyards, or separate wheat from chaff, or count money in talents, or snare fowl. Singing about these things is a powerful way of keeping them perpetually modern and relevant. Which part of Psalm 90, exactly, do you think no longer “makes sense” or “has relevance”?

I have some experience in speechwriting and story writing, and you don’t expect a snippet from some much longer explication to work on its own.

On Eagle’s Wings covers vv. 1-12 out of the 16 verses of the psalm. That’s not a “snippet.”

You have to know the audience; its knowledge background and its idiom, the amount of time (or space) allotted, and the precise point you’re trying to get across. From the first word to the last, it has to stand on its own, and the thought (and the point) has to be full and complete by the end.

One could apply the same criteria to your post, I’m sure.

 

[Sarabande]

That sounds awesome.

But that’s a choir singing. Choirs do sing. It’s the congregation that tends to not sing!

Actually, I have relatives (well really very close family friends who we consider relatives) who are Byzentine Catholic and where they are, the entire congregation sings… in parts, amazingly enough.

 

[CatholicFireman]

Truelight, you should come to my parish, where they take, “Singing is praying twice”, very seriously.

With and without music.