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lak611
Guest
What about women who are single and do not have a husband? Are we supposed to try to support ourselves on minimum wage jobs?
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lak611
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blessedtoo
Guest
Who is preventing you from pursuing a career in math or science? Who expects you to be miserable? When have any of these things been the philosophy and practices of American culture?
I find that, when discussing this issue of women and feminism, it is often impossible for women to think outside themselves or their own immediate personal experience. I also find it amazing how few actually know the history of the feminist movement. Women believe there was some noble intent motivating these women. But their primary goal was, and always has been, to erase any and all gender differences, to promote the notion that women do not need men for anything, that children are a burden and hindrence to achieving valuable goals, that religion is patriarchal and oppressive, that sexual freedom equals sexual promiscuity, and on and on.
On a Catholic forum, I am curious that any Catholic woman could square those “principles” with our faith.
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Cat
Guest
There’s no need to “look up” anything about women and careers before the 1970s. Ask any woman over 65. They’ll tell you the real history, not just “book history,” of what it was like to be a woman back in the 1950s.
My mother told me. It was tough.
Has anyone read any of the articles about some of the changes in feminism? Women are realizing that they went “too far,” and are working to regain certain things. For example, I first heard about NFP through feminist groups who promote it as the method of spacing children that most protects women’s health. Also, many feminist organizations are actively promoting breast feeding (which, according to my mother, was “frowned-upon” in the 1950s because it was considered “poor” and “low” and “old-fashioned”). Finally, many feminists are encouraging women to be stay-at-home moms.
Feminism came about because of injustice. Many of the laws of the U.S. supported a culture which allowed women to be abused and raped with impunity. Also, there were laws that prohibited women from working in certain jobs, and laws that made it difficult for women to get an education. Up until the early 20th Century, women weren’t allowed to vote. Many of these laws forced women to live in poverty and fear.
These laws have been changed, due in part to the work of “feminist” organizations. The laws are more just now, which is in keeping with CATHOLIC teachings about justice and social equality.
My mother told me. It was tough.
Has anyone read any of the articles about some of the changes in feminism? Women are realizing that they went “too far,” and are working to regain certain things. For example, I first heard about NFP through feminist groups who promote it as the method of spacing children that most protects women’s health. Also, many feminist organizations are actively promoting breast feeding (which, according to my mother, was “frowned-upon” in the 1950s because it was considered “poor” and “low” and “old-fashioned”). Finally, many feminists are encouraging women to be stay-at-home moms.
Feminism came about because of injustice. Many of the laws of the U.S. supported a culture which allowed women to be abused and raped with impunity. Also, there were laws that prohibited women from working in certain jobs, and laws that made it difficult for women to get an education. Up until the early 20th Century, women weren’t allowed to vote. Many of these laws forced women to live in poverty and fear.
These laws have been changed, due in part to the work of “feminist” organizations. The laws are more just now, which is in keeping with CATHOLIC teachings about justice and social equality.
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
I’m confused about this post. Hey, math and science and engineering can be service jobs too. I love Engineering and all the things Engineers can do to help others. Science has invented all sorts of things that serve to help others, whether it be their health, making things easier for others, etc. Now, even if one was to have a job that is not directly/noticeably of service to others, as long as its an honest profession (science has also taken immoral/unethical ways) then it should be fine. The fact that women are designed to be more “nurturing” does not mean that they do not have other talents that can be explored and put to use in society. A woman’s touch is useful and needed in all arenas of life. Also, if a woman does get married and have children, then yes, she needs to put her family first, over her “ambitions” etc. This does not mean a woman cannot work once she is married/with children. There have been numerous debates on this, so I’m not going to get into it too much, but as long as the mother is discerning she is fulfill her obligations as a mother/wife, doing what is best for her family, and is doing what is best in her situation, then so be it. Her profession does not have to be a “traditional” female one, but like I posted in my other post, some of these “traditional” female professions are traditionally female because they happen to be very compatible with some aspects of women and of motherhood. I studied Mechanical Engineering and was planning on going to med school when I met my husband. I decided to be a SAHM instead of pursuing a career or going to med school when we became pregnant with our first. My point is when I was not married I chose the profession I liked, and had high ambitions, but when I got married and knew we had a child on the way I wanted to spend my time at home with my child (now children) and since we were fortunate enough to be able to make that happen, we acted upon what we found was best for our family in our situation. I have looked into education, a “traditionally” female profession, because of how it is more compatible with what I would like to do as a mother. I am planning to possibly go back to school (Engineering isn’t a good field to leave for many years and then come back) once my kids are older, if I feel that’s what God wants of me. Who knows if any of this will happen, or if God has other surprises for our family that may require a different plan of action. If I had not met my husband and was still single I certainly would have continued on with my plans in these Science fields.
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actorgirl
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I’m black, some um , no. The past can stay right where it is. Although the ills of the past still creeps up on us today.
I’m in the first generation african-americans never has to worry about which water fountain I had to drink out of, and I’m only 33.
I’m in the first generation african-americans never has to worry about which water fountain I had to drink out of, and I’m only 33.
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TraditionalCath
Guest
well, i was a kid in the 70’s and early 80’s. so here is what i say we can recover from that particular era. its only my opinion, as the culture back then was different in every partof the world as it is today.
when i grew up, we did not have a tv,we could not afford it. we had one before my parents divorced in the early 70’s, and that was the only tv i remember us having. mom raised us, so i can tell you, we had no tv. as kids, my younger sister and i did alot of recreational activities. i think today, we can pretty much do the same as we did back then. less tv, and more focus on God. going to Mass, teaching our children the Catechism, teaching them to pray. exct.
having family recreation, doing things as a family. perhaps not having a tv, or if you do, far less of it. staying away from the internet all the time. no video games, and if they want them, find wholesome ones. although in today’s society, that seems impossible. teach the kids the value of earning money as they grow older, teach them about having a job and learning to appreciate what they work for.
teach them first and foremost about God. and how important He is for our lives, and our very existence. God should always come first and foremost in a family. have the kids read about the lives of the saints.
its not hard to recapture those era’s. it only takes effort. i have heard alot of Catholics state that they don’t have a tv , and that they home school their kids. mom would sometimes home school us. and those are the times i loved the best. and going to Mass was the best of all. Catholics today i feel are really doing great by their kids. and themselves. not alot of them watch the news either. not the ones i spoke to. they just don’t care to see the news.
iam on the net because i want to be. i educate jw’s all the time who want to leave the watchtower organization. iam helping one to see the Catholic faith and the truth of it. so, i have learned many valuable life lessons from my childhood. charity, compassion, forgiveness, going to Mass, spending time with my family, and you name it. my sole goal in this earthly life is to live for God and to do as Jesus commanded, love one another as I have loved you. i do not live for myself, but for Him. we can teach our children these lesson as well. same as what my mother taught me 37 years ago. and it is still true today. that we must live for Him.
He did so much for us, its the least we can do for Him.
these are valuable lessons i learned as a kid. and i appreciate them today more than ever. yes, we can recapture that time in our lives, and we can also learn from it today and apply it today.
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jman507
Guest
Yes, I think my mom was awfully upset she didn’t have the same opportunity as my dad to do roofing. Misses that time she could have feel off the roof. Luckily it was so cold that my dad was so bundled up it kept the fall from being worse than what it was. Or that time he spilled the hot tar in his boot. If he had a chance to be a doctor or lawyer it was nominal at most, but realistically it wasn’t an opition.
Both times presented good opportunities, some in the same way, others were not the same. In my opinion, if you seeking fulfillment in a career you are in trouble, though you do need to do something to make sure the bills are paid, and you do make a worthy contribution. Also not to forget to mention something where you can find joy in your work that is suited to you. But you also must remember many of the people who “find success” are not happy. If anything if you want to feel fulfilled find it in your relationships. I might find my work a joy, not so much because of the work, the whole job I do is rather inane, but because of the people.
Goodness, also reading this thread, if I ever do find a woman I’d like to marry, if she starts talking of this whole men submission of women thing, red flags will be going up right there. I am sure there are many men that have been abusively dominate, are doing it now, and will do it in the future. I have also scene it from women. I’ve scene it in a family setting, also at work, school, and the such, by man, woman, and child.
Two of my ground rules to marriage is the family, especially the care minor children, comes first, job second. (That is not to say one cannot take job oppurtunities, but if they will come to put too much stress and strain on the family, something has to come less, so another can take more. If one can’t put the care of children first, then it would seem single life would be the proper calling, which is also a wonderful vocation too.) Also if once a threat is noticed to pose a threat to the vows, it must be mitigated, but that is a further extention of the first. I myself would hope the same is expected of me, and for that matter other men as well.
Both times presented good opportunities, some in the same way, others were not the same. In my opinion, if you seeking fulfillment in a career you are in trouble, though you do need to do something to make sure the bills are paid, and you do make a worthy contribution. Also not to forget to mention something where you can find joy in your work that is suited to you. But you also must remember many of the people who “find success” are not happy. If anything if you want to feel fulfilled find it in your relationships. I might find my work a joy, not so much because of the work, the whole job I do is rather inane, but because of the people.
Goodness, also reading this thread, if I ever do find a woman I’d like to marry, if she starts talking of this whole men submission of women thing, red flags will be going up right there. I am sure there are many men that have been abusively dominate, are doing it now, and will do it in the future. I have also scene it from women. I’ve scene it in a family setting, also at work, school, and the such, by man, woman, and child.
Two of my ground rules to marriage is the family, especially the care minor children, comes first, job second. (That is not to say one cannot take job oppurtunities, but if they will come to put too much stress and strain on the family, something has to come less, so another can take more. If one can’t put the care of children first, then it would seem single life would be the proper calling, which is also a wonderful vocation too.) Also if once a threat is noticed to pose a threat to the vows, it must be mitigated, but that is a further extention of the first. I myself would hope the same is expected of me, and for that matter other men as well.
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lak611
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Your post does make sense. What I was trying to say was that not all women are married with families, and some women do not fit the “nurturing” personality. I am single and prefer working with facts, data, and objects, rather than with people. Nursing, teaching and office administration do not fit my personality. Back in the 1950’s, I would probably not have an opportunity to pursue engineering or other careers that are more related to hard data as opposed to nurturing type professions. I have a friend who is a single woman who owns a construction company. Her degree is in civil engineering. She probably would not have been able to pursue this career or own this business 50 years ago.
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blessedtoo
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That’s alot of “probably’s”.
Can you tell me what laws would have prevented you or your friend from pursuing a career in civil engineering in the 1050’s?
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blessedtoo
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Could you please cite the laws that “supported” and “allowed” women to be raped and abused?
Could you please cite the laws that specifically prohibited women from working or getting an education?
Women received the right to vote in 1923. We are discussing the 1950’s and 1960’s.
Please cite the laws that “forced women to live in poverty and fear”.
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Cat
Guest
I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t do a lot of reading about feminism and women’s rights. But I googled women/oppressivelaws/United States/1950s, and found lots of links, including the following which sites some specific laws:
ecssba.rutgers.edu/docs/decl.html
I realize that this and others are liberal sites with a bias towards extreme feminism. But the laws are the laws. Facts are facts.
The fact was, women (along with minorities) did not have protection under the law until fairly recently.
To maintain that the opportunities were there is just ignoring the facts.
Just read a book like Little Women, hardly a feminist rallying cry. But the book contains many examples of how women didn’t have the same opportunities as men. Little Men and Jo’s Boys continues, and what’s interesting about Jo’s Boys is that the WOMEN actually attended Lawrence College–the book makes it clear that is is considered highly unusual.
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SeekerJen
Guest
I don’t think anyone is arguing that a woman who can pass the standard requirements should not be allowed to do the job. What people are arguing against is lowering the standards. When you do that you compromise job performance. In some jobs that’s not as big a deal, but in a job where human lives are at stake, it could be a disaster.
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blessedtoo
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From the recent NY Times Bestseller “Get to Work”, authored by feminist spokeswoman Linda Hirschman:
albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2006-02-24
This author made the rounds of talk radio as well as appearing on every major news program for several weeks after the publication of her book.
I am interested in what prominent and influencial “feminist” organizations are promoting NFP.
In addition, promotion of breast feeding is hardly a politically controversial issue. If breast feeding was uncommon in the 50’s, it was not due to discrimination.
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lak611
Guest
Here is what a woman professor at Rutgers has to say.
from this website sciencewomen.rutgers.edu/profiles/?a=display&f=girlgeeks&id=198
This is a woman who went to university in the late 60’s/early 70’s. Do you really think she would have had any opportunities at all 10-15 years before that?
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blessedtoo
Guest
First, I want to thank you for maintaining such a civilized and friendly tone throughout this discussion. Also, thank you for taking the time to look up this information.
The link you provided illustrates unjust laws of the 1800’s. Most, if not all, of these injustices were corrected with the Suffrage movement on the early 1900’s and the Women’s Right to Vote in 1923. We are focusing on the 50’s in this thread. The Suffrage and Feminist movements are two entirely different issues.
Might I suggest a few books that will clearly illustrate the objectives of the feminist movement.
http://www.amazon.com/Outrageous-Ac...3449416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191696544&sr=1-3
amazon.com/Outrageous-Acts-Everyday-Rebellions-Second/dp/0805042024/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/103-1062121-3449416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191696544&sr=1-3
Gloria Steinem, Outrageous Acts
“A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.”
amazon.com/Feminine-Mystique-Betty-Friedan/dp/0393322572/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1062121-3449416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191697656&sr=1-1
Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique
“In her chapter entitled Comfortable Concentration Camp, she likens the hopelessness of POW’s in Korea to American women trapped at home with children in the suburbs.”
amazon.com/Sexual-Politics-Kate-Millett/dp/0252068890/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1062121-3449416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191697987&sr=1-1
Kate Millet, Sexual Politics
“A celebrated call for the end of a patriarchal institution (marriage) that treated women like chattel.”
amazon.com/Sisterhood-Powerful-Anthology-Writings-Liberation/dp/0394705394/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1062121-3449416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191698270&sr=1-1
Robin Morgan, Sisterhood is Powerful
“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”
These are but a handful of the dogmatic texts from the feminist’s themselves. No spin. You can read, in their own words, what they wanted to (and still want to) achieve.
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blessedtoo
Guest
She also says:
She promised her 1st grade teacher she would go to MIT. She did, in fact, accomplish that goal.
She credits the Space Program and the massive investment of the National Science Foundation for encouraging her and other girls to attend summer science camps.
She spent six weeks studying physics at Brown in 1968.
Based on her essay, I surmise she was given every opportunity available to her with the exception of the two schools she mentioned.
Yale had a sister shool, Vassar, which was a female only college. It was Yale’s equivalent prior to the enforcement of coeducation. In addition to Vassar, there were seven sister schools to the traditionally male Ivy League colleges:
The Seven Sisters are seven historically women’s liberal-arts colleges in the Northeastern United States. They are Barnard College, Bryn Mawr College, Mount Holyoke College, Radcliffe College, Smith College, Wellesley College, and Vassar College.
As for Princeton, it was originally intended to train Presbyterian ministers who were, of course, all male. Princeton also had a sister shool for women, Evelyn College for Women.
Prior to the feminist movement of the 60’s, the cultural approach to education in general (including grade and high school education) was to favor the separation of the sexes. One could view this as discrminiation, but then it would have to cut both ways, right? If there were women only colleges, weren’t men being discriminated against as well?
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Cat
Guest
May I say that when I started this thread, I really didn’t envision it turning into a debate about feminism, a subject that is controversial and emotional.
I think I am not the only one who will admit that I know very little factual information about the subject. It’s not a subject that I would like to explore in detail. I’m simply not interested.
I wish that those who would like to discuss feminism would start a thread in a section of the board that is meant for discussing issues. Would that work? Thanks.
This is a family section of the board, right?
What I really wanted to do in this thread was try to discuss which practices of the 50s, 60s, and 70s families should try to re-capture for the 2000s, and which practices we should relegate to the dust-bin of history!
For example, I think many of us are in agreement that television should not rule our lives! We would like to see more television viewing in which the whole family gathers around the set to enjoy a good show. We would like to see limits on viewing time.
Another practice that I think many of us would like is more outdoor playtime, but we reluctantly concede that this probably isn’t going to happen because of the state of our culture. There simply aren’t as many good grownups around to watch over our kids as they range through the neighborhood anymore. RIP, outdoor play time.
I think quite a few of us are welcoming the computer age, although we are trying not to let it take the place of the idol of television.
I think many women and minorities agree that we have myriads of opportunities available to us now. Whether we did or didn’t in the 1950s/1960s, etc. ISN’T IMPORTANT! What IS important is that we now CAN get
a good education, we CAN seek any career path that we are interested in, we CAN choose to stay home and raise children. We don’t have any excuses for failing to at least try to achieve our goals.
However, I think many of us agree that there is still plenty of injustice in the world, and that as Christians and Catholics we need to work to correct injustice and bring dignity to all humans.
I think many of us agree that we should spend more time teaching our children in word and deed about God, our Church, the Bible, and the important things in life. I did this with my children as a Protestant mom; I wish with all my heart that I had had the opportunity to raise my children in the Catholic Church. Consider yourself privileged if you are a Catholic mom or dad!
I think many of us agree that we eat way too much! I’m not sure if I’m ready to agree that we should all cook more–I hate cooking! But we probably shouldn’t eat so mindlessly, without even paying attention to what’s in our hand as we drive!
Anything else?
I think I am not the only one who will admit that I know very little factual information about the subject. It’s not a subject that I would like to explore in detail. I’m simply not interested.
I wish that those who would like to discuss feminism would start a thread in a section of the board that is meant for discussing issues. Would that work? Thanks.
This is a family section of the board, right?
What I really wanted to do in this thread was try to discuss which practices of the 50s, 60s, and 70s families should try to re-capture for the 2000s, and which practices we should relegate to the dust-bin of history!
For example, I think many of us are in agreement that television should not rule our lives! We would like to see more television viewing in which the whole family gathers around the set to enjoy a good show. We would like to see limits on viewing time.
Another practice that I think many of us would like is more outdoor playtime, but we reluctantly concede that this probably isn’t going to happen because of the state of our culture. There simply aren’t as many good grownups around to watch over our kids as they range through the neighborhood anymore. RIP, outdoor play time.
I think quite a few of us are welcoming the computer age, although we are trying not to let it take the place of the idol of television.
I think many women and minorities agree that we have myriads of opportunities available to us now. Whether we did or didn’t in the 1950s/1960s, etc. ISN’T IMPORTANT! What IS important is that we now CAN get
a good education, we CAN seek any career path that we are interested in, we CAN choose to stay home and raise children. We don’t have any excuses for failing to at least try to achieve our goals.
However, I think many of us agree that there is still plenty of injustice in the world, and that as Christians and Catholics we need to work to correct injustice and bring dignity to all humans.
I think many of us agree that we should spend more time teaching our children in word and deed about God, our Church, the Bible, and the important things in life. I did this with my children as a Protestant mom; I wish with all my heart that I had had the opportunity to raise my children in the Catholic Church. Consider yourself privileged if you are a Catholic mom or dad!
I think many of us agree that we eat way too much! I’m not sure if I’m ready to agree that we should all cook more–I hate cooking! But we probably shouldn’t eat so mindlessly, without even paying attention to what’s in our hand as we drive!
Anything else?
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lak611
Guest
Those were liberal arts schools. They did not offer the BS degree.
The men were allowed to get BS degrees, not just BA degrees.
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you very, very much for that. This is exactly how I was raised. Getting to know the other person, and having fun together, yes, but knowing full well about what the nature of male-female relatonships meant, it was very, very important to first build a relationship of respect and mutual trust. Religious compatability was also an important factor. Children are meant to be a continuation of our Christian beliefs and not the product of whatever temporary, worldy ideas that are usually incompatible with our faith.
By treating a woman with dignity and courtesy, she would get some real idea of the type of man she was with. I spoke with the father of one young lady. He was a good man who was appropriately concerned about how well I could support his daughter and he had appropriate questions about my character. Her mother also talked to me. This is the background for proper courtship, then, if agreement exists, for being engaged when all of the relevant issues about your lives together are raised. Then finally, marriage, before God and man, which should always be preceded by a long talk with a priest.
There are such people still. However, the devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour today. He is loud which is why we need to pray, examine our hearts and listen for the quiet voice of God.
God bless,
Ed
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