Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

[PJM]

***Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64***

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

 

[CMatt25]

***Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64***

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

Charitiable might depend on the eyes of the beholder and how much one has convinced themselves that their faith is the ultimate one truth vs how open one is to understanding other beliefs in a non-Catholic forum. But some Protestants might say in those verses Christ was explaining His spiritual real presence thus explaining He was not speaking of a physical real presence. And those who did not believe did not understand that what He was saying was spiritual, not a literal physical RP. They instead mistakenly took His words of “eating” literally so they walked. Peace.

 

[PJM]

=CMatt25;7543740]Charitiable might depend on the eyes of the beholder and how much one has convinced themselves that their faith is the ultimate one truth vs how open one is to understanding other beliefs in a non-Catholic forum. But some Protestants might say in those verses Christ was explaining His spiritual real presence thus explaining He was not speaking of a physical real presence. And those who did not believe did not understand that what He was saying was spiritual, not a literal physical RP. They instead mistakenly took His words of “eating” literally so they walked. Peace.

God willing, we Catholics may actually learn about other faith beliefs?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[nablaise]

It is by the power of the spirit that the Word became Flesh. So this Flesh is spiritual and we need it to have spiritual life. And by having spiritual life our flesh will be raised up after our spirit has been restored. It is the spirit that gives life, but unless we eat his flesh we have no life within us. And the flesh that he gives us, the flesh that the spirit gives life, is the bread, and the wine transformed by the spirit by the power of his words.

 

[Luke_K]

In order to understand it we have to consider the progression of ideas that led up to this statement. Jesus had just told the crowd that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood as true food and true drink. The crowd found this commandment hard to accept, and Jesus questioned why it shocked them. So this statement pertains to their inability to accept what Jesus was saying.

From my perspective, Jesus appears to be explaining to them that they can’t accept by human power alone what he’s commanding them to do. They need supernatural faith to believe that they have to eat the flesh of Jesus. It makes sense that Jesus would mean this, because it’s a response to their inability to believe. It also connects with the verse that says Jesus knew who would believe and who wouldn’t, because he knew which ones belonged to the Father and were alive with the Spirit.

Consider Jesus’ reply to Peter’s confession in Matthew 16: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” What Jesus means in this verse and the bread of life discourse is that we cannot understand these mysteries through human reason alone, but only by supernatural faith. By believing in them through the gift of faith which comes from the Holy Spirit, we will have eternal life, just as Jesus said.

And besides, Jesus’ flesh avails much. Ours doesn’t, however.

 

[CMatt25]

So ok Jesus says the flesh profits nothing. Yet Catholics and Protestants alike believe His sacrificing His flesh on the cross certainly profited us. And believe the flesh of the righteous will be raised up. So are you basically saying the flesh does profit but it was the Spirit that began the whole process of giving life?

 

[CMatt25]

God willing, we Catholics may actually learn about other faith beliefs?

God Bless,
Pat

Well Pat, yes God willing but that also takes opening hearts to His will. God bless you too.

 

[Little_Mary]

***Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64***

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

He was basically saying “You’re thinking with your head and not your heart. Have faith.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1Co 2:14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
1Co 2:15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The ones who did not believe misunderstood Jesus to mean litterally eat his flesh as a piece of meat and drink his blood litterally as to drink blood from a human.

The other misconception that cannot be taken from this text is symbolic. Jesus never gives this inclination of a symbolic meaning to eating his flesh and drinking his blood, otherwise the other disciples would of never left him.

Peter gives us the clue here to this bread of life discourse; from verse 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

When scripture speaks of a “spirit” scripture relates to the whole being of the person. To be the Holy One of God (Jesus) means that the substance that Jesus maintains in his humanity is both fully human and fully divine.

Our carnal understanding of the body does not equate with what Jesus is teaching here. On this side of death our bodies maintain a boundary which seperates each of us from our true being and limits our communion with one another. Much more can be defined from the senses here and how the body can become a bridge that unites our humanity, but these definitions only limit our understanding to the mystery or substance from which Jesus is speaking in regards to “the spirit that gives life, and the flesh is of no avail”.

The gospel of John when interpreted in the full context reveals the resurrection. Jesus resurrection reveals that the body ceases to be limited and from its capacity for communion eternally remains.

Jesus is not a piece of meat from his resurrection, Jesus cannot be measured and quantified, Jesus is not part of a bread or does not cohabit himself with a piece of bread because Jesus is other and greater than bread. Jesus is never symbolic either, to think thus, denies the existance of Jesus resurrection.

No a transformation has occurred. Spirit never ever reveals a symbolism or to describe a person outside of oneself. Spirit describes the eternal being of the person of Christ, for God is Spirit that gives life, as Peter qualified his belief in Jesus from vs. 68 above.

The flesh is of no avail, in other words, our (carnal) understanding from the flesh falls to dust, whereby it is by the Spirit that gives life to what ever God wills to, because the flesh by itself cannot do nothing without God.

When the Holy One of God (Jesus) words speak to the bread and wine “This is my body, this is my blood” a transformation occurrs, not according to the flesh but according to the eternal “Spirit” which gives life.

The bread and wine become “transubstantiated” into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, the “Spirit has given life to these”, never the flesh, and when we enter into communion with Jesus as He consumes us as we eat his body and drink his blood. It is the spirit that communes and consumes us to give us eternal life to our souls (spirit) not our flesh, because we will be given new eternal bodies in the resurrection.

In summary, when we recieve holy communion, we are recieving the True presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity in the True presence of the Spirit which gives life to the transubstantiated bread and wine at the Words from the Holy One of God (Jesus), this is the “medicine of immortality” (St. Ignatius of Antioch) to our soul (spirit), but to our flesh they availeth nothing, because to our flesh (senses) they remain bread and wine.

At Jugdement day when God takes an accounting of your life on earth, God will ask your soul, “where is the body and blood I gave you to eat in order to have eternal life”? What will your soul respond today to the Eucharist? Amen? or will you leave Jesus true presence, and deny his body, blood, soul and divinity in His Eucharistf from Jesus substance of the “Spirit that gives life”, but to our flesh they availeth nothing, but to our soul the Eucharist is the “medicine of immortality”.

Peace be with you

***Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64***

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

 

[elvisman]

He was basically saying “You’re thinking with your head and not your heart. Have faith.”

You hit the nail on the head.
In your brief explanation - you have spoken VOLUMES.

 

[CMatt25]

Jesus never gives this inclination of a symbolic meaning to eating his flesh and drinking his blood, otherwise the other disciples would of never left him.

Unless one believes He was giving a spiritual real presence meaning. Not physical. And those disciples who walked were still taking things literally even after He had explained a spiritual presence. So they walked and He allowed them to since He had already explained it. Yet they did not listen.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

What is “giving a spiritual real presence meaning”?

When it is the Spirit that gives life, one cannot give a spiritual real presence meaning. To give a spiritual real presence meaning denies the substance (mystery) of who the Spirit is.

It is physical, because Jesus states earlier in John 6 that “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink”. Everything about these words from Jesus are physical.

When Jesus resurrected from the dead; did not Jesus eat fish? did not Jesus tell doubting Thomas to put his finger in the holes of his crucified hands, and place his hand on his pierced wounded side?

What we are dealing with here are not things of the carnal flesh which avails nothing. We are dealing with the (mystical) (sacramental) signs of the Spirit which brings about the eternal reality, when the divinity of Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, takes on flesh.

What gets missed here is that Jesus flesh is without sin, Jesus is the begotten son of God, the first Adam was not born nor begotten of God, but created in the image of God, whereby Jesus is the image of God. The flesh of Jesus exceeds the physical aspects of the physical aspects of Adam. So, yes Jesus is speaking about a physical reality of his body and blood to eat and drink.

St. Paul gives this explanation here; 1Corinthians 15:36 You fool!! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind; but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.

We the offspring from the first Adam, have to eat the “True presence” of flesh and drink the “True” presence of blood of the only begotten son of God, so that we can have eternal life. Without this True presence of Jesus flesh and his blood that our soul partakes of “his divinity” (2 Peter 1:. 4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature,) we do not have eternal life.

It should be noted also here that this True presence of Jesus body and blood is achieved on this side of death through His (valid) blessed sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. No one can go before the Father except through a “True physical body and blood” of Jesus Christ. Without the True presence of Jesus body and blood? No one has seen God, only the Son has seen the Father and the Father and the Son are one united in the Holy Spirit as One God. The True presence of Jesus body and blood in His Eucharist takes our humanity into these mysteries of God, when God has communion with His body the Church in the “with him, in him in the unity of the Holy Spirit” when all glory and honor is given to the almighty Father in heaven.

This teaching of Jesus has everything to do with his physical body and blood. Because Catholics believe, Hebrews 3:3 **By faith **we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 **so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. **

Because Jesus is fully human resurrected and fully divine, man can not separate what God has joined together. You cannot receive the Spirit of Jesus which gives life, without receiving his body, blood soul and divinity, which gives us eternal life when we enter into communion with God.

Can you clarify what is giving a spiritual true presence meaning is?

Thank you and peace be with you

Unless one believes He was giving a spiritual real presence meaning. Not physical. And those disciples who walked were still taking things literally even after He had explained a spiritual presence. So they walked and He allowed them to since He had already explained it. Yet they did not listen.

 

[CMatt25]

What is “giving a spiritual real presence meaning”?

When it is the Spirit that gives life, one cannot give a spiritual real presence meaning. To give a spiritual real presence meaning denies the substance (mystery) of who the Spirit is.

It is physical, because Jesus states earlier in John 6 that “my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink”. Everything about these words from Jesus are physical.

When Jesus resurrected from the dead; did not Jesus eat fish? did not Jesus tell doubting Thomas to put his finger in the holes of his crucified hands, and place his hand on his pierced wounded side?

What we are dealing with here are not things of the carnal flesh which avails nothing. We are dealing with the (mystical) (sacramental) signs of the Spirit which brings about the eternal reality, when the divinity of Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, takes on flesh.

What gets missed here is that Jesus flesh is without sin, Jesus is the begotten son of God, the first Adam was not born nor begotten of God, but created in the image of God, whereby Jesus is the image of God. The flesh of Jesus exceeds the physical aspects of the physical aspects of Adam. So, yes Jesus is speaking about a physical reality of his body and blood to eat and drink.

St. Paul gives this explanation here; 1Corinthians 15:36 You fool!! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind; but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.

We the offspring from the first Adam, have to eat the “True presence” of flesh and drink the “True” presence of blood of the only begotten son of God, so that we can have eternal life. Without this True presence of Jesus flesh and his blood that our soul partakes of “his divinity” (2 Peter 1:. 4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature,) we do not have eternal life.

It should be noted also here that this True presence of Jesus body and blood is achieved on this side of death through His (valid) blessed sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. No one can go before the Father except through a “True physical body and blood” of Jesus Christ. Without the True presence of Jesus body and blood? No one has seen God, only the Son has seen the Father and the Father and the Son are one united in the Holy Spirit as One God. The True presence of Jesus body and blood in His Eucharist takes our humanity into these mysteries of God, when God has communion with His body the Church in the “with him, in him in the unity of the Holy Spirit” when all glory and honor is given to the almighty Father in heaven.

This teaching of Jesus has everything to do with his physical body and blood. Because Catholics believe, Hebrews 3:3 **By faith **we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 **so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. **

Because Jesus is fully human resurrected and fully divine, man can not separate what God has joined together. You cannot receive the Spirit of Jesus which gives life, without receiving his body, blood soul and divinity, which gives us eternal life when we enter into communion with God.

Can you clarify what is giving a spiritual true presence meaning is?

Thank you and peace be with you

Well I’ll try. But I sure could use some of my Protestant friends here who believe Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and will return in bodily form at the 2nd Coming and who do not believe in a Eucharistic bodily presence, to help me out.

But from what I understand when one has faith in not a physical bodily presence but in a spiritual, it means Jesus is truly present in spirit when Communion is partaken but not in body. And when He states his flesh and blood are true food and drink, it is His sacrifice of His flesh and blood on the cross which provide us life. Communion is thus meant to be symbolic of the Last Supper when not having died, resurrected or ascended yet, He said to do this in remembrance (symbolically) of Him. All the while He remains present today with us in spirit.

If I got anything wrong, I apologize to my Protestant brethren. But I hope that helps a bit at least. God bless you Gabriel and peace be with you always as well.

 

[Little_Mary]

You hit the nail on the head.
In your brief explanation - you have spoken VOLUMES.

Thank you elvisman! :tiphat:

 

[Lapey]

Well I’ll try. But I sure could use some of my Protestant friends here who believe Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and will return in bodily form at the 2nd Coming and who do not believe in a Eucharistic bodily presence, to help me out.

But from what I understand when one has faith in not a physical bodily presence but in a spiritual, it means Jesus is truly present in spirit when Communion is partaken but not in body. And when He states his flesh and blood are true food and drink, it is His sacrifice of His flesh and blood on the cross which provide us life. Communion is thus meant to be symbolic of the Last Supper when not having died, resurrected or ascended yet, He said to do this in remembrance (symbolically) of Him. All the while He remains present today with us in spirit.

If I got anything wrong, I apologize to my Protestant brethren. But I hope that helps a bit at least. God bless you Gabriel and peace be with you always as well.

Well hello Matt…I see nothing has changed except your religion affiliation, sorry to hear that.

If you could bring yourself to put down your disbelief and listen to your Church and your Catholic brethren you would hear the truth. It’s there in black and white and sacred Tradition and the teaching of the Magisteriem. The three legged chair stands tall!!!

I haven’t visited this forum in a while.

One truly has to go a round about way to come to your conclusion. As others have mentioned before, there are other scriptures that tell what was meant here, and Tradition to back it up, and teaching and reality of the truth of His Church. If you choose to not believe then that is your choice. Many left on His teaching of this, only twelve stayed. You are free to choose with the vast majority. I choose to stay with Christ and I invite you to stay as well.

 

[PJM]

=Luke K;7543855]In order to understand it we have to consider the progression of ideas that led up to this statement. Jesus had just told the crowd that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood as true food and true drink. The crowd found this commandment hard to accept, and Jesus questioned why it shocked them. So this statement pertains to their inability to accept what Jesus was saying.

From my perspective, Jesus appears to be explaining to them that they can’t accept by human power alone what he’s commanding them to do. They need supernatural faith to believe that they have to eat the flesh of Jesus. It makes sense that Jesus would mean this, because it’s a response to their inability to believe. It also connects with the verse that says Jesus knew who would believe and who wouldn’t, because he knew which ones belonged to the Father and were alive with the Spirit.

Consider Jesus’ reply to Peter’s confession in Matthew 16: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” What Jesus means in this verse and the bread of life discourse is that we cannot understand these mysteries through human reason alone, but only by supernatural faith. By believing in them through the gift of faith which comes from the Holy Spirit, we will have eternal life, just as Jesus said.

And besides, Jesus’ flesh avails much. Ours doesn’t, however.

THANKS Luke, excellent reply!

Pat

 

[GreggAlvarez]

***Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64***

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

Romans 8:11:
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.

Notice how Saint Paul specifically says “give life to your mortal bodies also.” This clearly means that Jesus “mortal body” (if one can call it that) was given life (at the Resurrection) also. The Eucharist is the Lord’s Supper, His death, Resurrection and Ascenscion. (How the heck do you spell “ascencion”?) As He gave life to Christ’s Body, so He also does in the Eucharistic miracle.

It is clearly His Body here. It is literally His Body as well as His Blood. According to the Church (and correct me if I am wrong Catholics), it is also His Soul and Divinity (Spirit).

I hope this helps!

God bless

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by CMatt25
Well I’ll try. But I sure could use some of my Protestant friends here who believe Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and will return in bodily form at the 2nd Coming and who do not believe in a Eucharistic bodily presence, to help me out.

**But from what I understand when one has faith in not a physical bodily presence but in a spiritual, it means Jesus is truly present in spirit when Communion is partaken but not in body. **And when He states his flesh and blood are true food and drink, it is His sacrifice of His flesh and blood on the cross which provide us life. Communion is thus meant to be symbolic of the Last Supper when not having died, resurrected or ascended yet, He said to do this in remembrance (symbolically) of Him. All the while He remains present today with us in spirit.

If I got anything wrong, I apologize to my Protestant brethren. But I hope that helps a bit at least. God bless you Gabriel and peace be with you always as well.

That my friend is the common understanding among the Protestant Comunions. It however is not what Christ Himself is saying in John six: “Truly, truly, I [Jesus]] say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
** I am the bread of life.** I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” [52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” [NOTE THE REPLY OF JESUS] … So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
***[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” ***

The Jews too though He was spaking of His carnal body; NO! Jesus was speaking about His very REAL [as in a person] GLORIFIED and Risen Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

That this was RIGHTLY understood by the Apostles and “imediately” put into practice by them is verified in the Testimonly of Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; Lk. 22:19-21, John above, and St. Paul in 1 Cor. 11: 23-29. That means five different NT authors understood it, beleived it and taught it. That is very clear evidence of it’s truth and practice as constantly and continually held and practiced by Christ CC.

Notice in the end of John sis, Jesus turns to the Apostls and ask: 'Do YOU wish to leave me also? Peter replies: No Lord, we hve come to know that you are God and have the words of Eternal Life. Nor did Jesus retact His words when a GREAT MANY abandoned Him becaue of the Teaching.

Paul, the last Apostle, taught by Christ himself warns: 1 Cor. 11:27-29 “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.”

Paul COULD NOT make such a statement if speaking ONLY of ordianry bread and wine.

As further information, I’ll share some of the Words of EVERY Consecration: " In Him; With Him; and THROUGH Him", Eucharist is From God; Is God, and is primarily For God; but because God is alreadt Perfect; it is we whom benefit from it’s abundant Graces.

It is an UNBLOODY Sacrifice as REAL as Christ Death on the Cross,[because Jesus can ONLY die once], which is exactly what it is. The making Present the sacrifice of Christ; time and time again. A Miracle; a Mystery wrought by God to aid in our Salvation. It requires FAITH, that God grants to those in His CC, who choose to beleive based ONLY on the Words of God; a God who cannot lie; and as a Perfect God, cannot mislead or deceive.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Jesus Himself all say “This IS My Body; This IS My Blood.” They would have used different language were it not the singular truth.

God Bless you,
and MANY THANKS for your post,
Pat [PJM]

 

[GaryTaylor]

In order to understand it we have to consider the progression of ideas that led up to this statement. Jesus had just told the crowd that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood as true food and true drink. The crowd found this commandment hard to accept, and Jesus questioned why it shocked them. So this statement pertains to their inability to accept what Jesus was saying.

From my perspective, Jesus appears to be explaining to them that they can’t accept by human power alone what he’s commanding them to do. They need supernatural faith to believe that they have to eat the flesh of Jesus. It makes sense that Jesus would mean this, because it’s a response to their inability to believe. It also connects with the verse that says Jesus knew who would believe and who wouldn’t, because he knew which ones belonged to the Father and were alive with the Spirit.

Consider Jesus’ reply to Peter’s confession in Matthew 16: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” What Jesus means in this verse and the bread of life discourse is that we cannot understand these mysteries through human reason alone, but only by supernatural faith. By believing in them through the gift of faith which comes from the Holy Spirit, we will have eternal life, just as Jesus said.

And besides, Jesus’ flesh avails much. Ours doesn’t, however.

I like this Luke. Lot of interesting response’s on this thread.