Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Catholics profess in our creed that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in his “It is finished”, yet in the **heavenly liturgy ****united with the Mass liturgy on earth **there remains “a lamb STANDING as though slain” (please see Revelations 5:6). This Lamb standing as though slain in the heavenly liturgy is what prevents God from destroying our humanity, instead this lamb “standing” before the Throne of God offering his body, and blood sacrifice for our redemption for those past, present and future who are not born yet.

This lamb sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice done “once and for all”. In both covenants of God a believer “must” eat (consume) the sacrificial lamb in order to “Passover” from the old testament angel of death, and in the New covenant the believer “must” eat (consume) the sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (this is recited in the Mass liturgy along with the heavenly liturgy) which “Passover” from eternal death into eternal life.

We know from the gospel accounts and old testament how the Old covenant celebrated the passover lamb sacrifice consumption. In the New covenant that fulfills the old covenant passover eternally, is celebrated in the Eucharist these past 2000 years since the last supper.

Catholics have never doubted the second coming of Jesus in his glorified body. And his second coming will not be any more glorious than his true presence of his body, blood, soul and divinity in His Eucharist. In fact Jesus gave the Catholic church the command to do this “in remembrance of me” preparing us today always to recieve him when Jesus returns to claim his eternal bride in eternity, when we shall not all fallasleep, but in a twinkling of an eye we shall be caught up to the Lord, as we celebrate his True presence at every Mass.

CMatt25;7544972]Well I’ll try. But I sure could use some of my Protestant friends here who believe Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and will return in bodily form at the 2nd Coming and who do not believe in a Eucharistic bodily presence, to help me out.

It appears again that you are seperating Jesus resurrected body from his divinity. How do you have the power to divide Jesus Christ personification of body and spirit? Can you give scripture support for this?

How does one eat of the spirit without a true physical body to consume? Do you pretend something is there? Or can you define a symbolic Jesus from your faith, because “Spirit” from scripture references the whole being of the person, as well as body when used in scripture references the whole being of a person. Can you help me see how your faith describes or defines symbolic “spirit”?

When Jesus states his flesh and blood are true food and drink, he is commanding those called of God to eat them not to pretend or believe that Jesus is not present bodily and blood. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ gave us his flesh and blood as sacrifice for us, that is why God commands that we are to “eat” the lamb of God and “drink” the lambs blood in order to have eternal life.

The Cross is what brought about our redemption and salvation. The lamb of God (Jesus) sacrificed on the cross is food for the children of God who have entered the kingdom of God by virtue of their baptism. Only the family members of the High Priest are the only ones who can consume the (hidden manna) Lamb offered in sacrifice to God for our redemption and salvation.

Jesus began his passion and suffering when he began to bleed at the last supper, when Jesus seperated his body from his blood eternally in his “this is my body”, “this is my blood”. What you forget is that Jesus was offering this meal up to God during the passover fulfillment in his body and blood. Jesus does not finish his eternal sacrifice made present in time until he gives up the “Spirit” in his body and blood on the cross, when Jesus states from the cross “it is consumated” (finished).

The passover prayers Jesus prayed were directed to His Father in heaven, including his prayer before the Father prior to consuming his fourth cup, asked our heavenly Father to pass this “cup” but not his will be done let God’s will be done, so the passover celebration was being fulfilled eternally in time from Jesus body, and blood sacrifice.

cont’

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t see how you can divide the Spirit (presence) from the True presence of body and blood of Jesus? To try and do this is to remove away from the Trinity, the One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

No one can go to the Father without Jesus True presence of body, blood, soul and divinity, here is scripture;
6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth 5 and the life.** No one comes to the Father except through me. 7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” **8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Can you explain to me how you go to the Father without the True presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity? When there is a lamb standing before God on our behalf as though slain in eternity.

Jesus flesh and blood on the cross provides us life? Can you explain this further?

thank you, Oh btw, I think your doing an excellent job here, and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and patience with me in clarifying any misunderstanding I may have about your faith being expressed here.

But from what I understand when one has faith in not a physical bodily presence but in a spiritual, it means Jesus is truly present in spirit when Communion is partaken but not in body. And when He states his flesh and blood are true food and drink, it is His sacrifice of His flesh and blood on the cross which provide us life. Communion is thus meant to be symbolic of the Last Supper when not having died, resurrected or ascended yet, He said to do this in remembrance (symbolically) of Him. All the while He remains present today with us in spirit.

If I got anything wrong, I apologize to my Protestant brethren. But I hope that helps a bit

 

[CMatt25]

Well hello Matt…I see nothing has changed except your religion affiliation, sorry to hear that.

If you could bring yourself to put down your disbelief and listen to your Church and your Catholic brethren you would hear the truth. It’s there in black and white and sacred Tradition and the teaching of the Magisteriem. The three legged chair stands tall!!!

I haven’t visited this forum in a while.

One truly has to go a round about way to come to your conclusion. As others have mentioned before, there are other scriptures that tell what was meant here, and Tradition to back it up, and teaching and reality of the truth of His Church. If you choose to not believe then that is your choice. Many left on His teaching of this, only twelve stayed. You are free to choose with the vast majority. I choose to stay with Christ and I invite you to stay as well.

Hello, many Catholics and non Catholics in faith choose to stay with Christ. As you know that’s why they’re called Christians.

In Christ,
CMatt25

 

[CMatt25]

That my friend is the common understanding among the Protestant Comunions. It however is not what Christ Himself is saying in John six: “Truly, truly, I [Jesus]] say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
** I am the bread of life.** I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” [52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” [NOTE THE REPLY OF JESUS] … So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
***[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” ***

The Jews too though He was spaking of His carnal body; NO! Jesus was speaking about His very REAL [as in a person] GLORIFIED and Risen Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

That this was RIGHTLY understood by the Apostles and “imediately” put into practice by them is verified in the Testimonly of Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; Lk. 22:19-21, John above, and St. Paul in 1 Cor. 11: 23-29. That means five different NT authors understood it, beleived it and taught it. That is very clear evidence of it’s truth and practice as constantly and continually held and practiced by Christ CC.

Notice in the end of John sis, Jesus turns to the Apostls and ask: 'Do YOU wish to leave me also? Peter replies: No Lord, we hve come to know that you are God and have the words of Eternal Life. Nor did Jesus retact His words when a GREAT MANY abandoned Him becaue of the Teaching.

Paul, the last Apostle, taught by Christ himself warns: 1 Cor. 11:27-29 “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.”

Paul COULD NOT make such a statement if speaking ONLY of ordianry bread and wine.

As further information, I’ll share some of the Words of EVERY Consecration: " In Him; With Him; and THROUGH Him", Eucharist is From God; Is God, and is primarily For God; but because God is alreadt Perfect; it is we whom benefit from it’s abundant Graces.

It is an UNBLOODY Sacrifice as REAL as Christ Death on the Cross,[because Jesus can ONLY die once], which is exactly what it is. The making Present the sacrifice of Christ; time and time again. A Miracle; a Mystery wrought by God to aid in our Salvation. It requires FAITH, that God grants to those in His CC, who choose to beleive based ONLY on the Words of God; a God who cannot lie; and as a Perfect God, cannot mislead or deceive.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Jesus Himself all say “This IS My Body; This IS My Blood.” They would have used different language were it not the singular truth.

God Bless you,
and MANY THANKS for your post,
Pat [PJM]

Thanks Pat. My hope was I was not misinterpreting those Protestant communions.

Of course a Christian of such faith as those Protestants I attempted to explain, might say the Jews disputed whether Christ was the Son of God and came down from heaven. Could this man come down from heaven and later sacrifice His flesh and blood on a cross to bring eternal life?

Or if they believe Christ had already explained He was speaking of a spiritual presence in the verses you sighted in your thread title and not the physical or carnal, He did not stop those who left because He had already explained it to them and they still were hung up on the physical body.

Or to eat and drink in remembrance without first discerning and remembering the sacrifice of His body and blood for us on the cross is what Paul meant would be in an unworthy manner. In other words, don’t eat/drink the bread and wine/juice without first calling to mind the cross.

Christ said to believe in Him for eternal life. So these Protestants might say to “eat” was symbolic language for “believe”. Christ afterall spoke frequently in symbolic language. He was a door or a gate. He told us He was a vine.

It’s all a matter of faith and belief. To even believe in the Catholic Church’s view, it takes having faith in the Church’s interpretation of Herself and in Her traditions.

Anyway I hope my posts have contributed in helping to explain some other beliefs to learn of. I know I feel blessed to understand various beliefs. God bless each of us on our walks of faith. And peace.

 

[Lapey]

Hello, many Catholics and non Catholics in faith choose to stay with Christ. As you know that’s why they’re called Christians.

In Christ,
CMatt25

Can you try to understand what I wrote? You left the Eucharist, you left Jesus. Those who left in John 6:66, btw 666 is a significant number don’t you think, left the Eucharist just like you and many. You are welcome home when you are ready to be obediant to the Lord and not the world. One cannot serve both God and mammon.

 

[Lapey]

Thanks Pat. My hope was I was not misinterpreting those Protestant communions.

Of course a Christian of such faith as those Protestants I attempted to explain, might say the Jews disputed whether Christ was the Son of God and came down from heaven. Could this man come down from heaven and later sacrifice His flesh and blood on a cross to bring eternal life?

Or if they believe Christ had already explained He was speaking of a spiritual presence in the verses you sighted in your thread title and not the physical or carnal, He did not stop those who left because He had already explained it to them and they still were hung up on the physical body.

Or to eat and drink in remembrance without first discerning and remembering the sacrifice of His body and blood for us on the cross is what Paul meant would be in an unworthy manner. In other words, don’t eat/drink the bread and wine/juice without first calling to mind the cross.

Christ said to believe in Him for eternal life. So these Protestants might say to “eat” was symbolic language for “believe”. Christ afterall spoke frequently in symbolic language. He was a door or a gate. He told us He was a vine.

It’s all a matter of faith and belief. To even believe in the Catholic Church’s view, it takes having faith in the Church’s interpretation of Herself and in Her traditions.

Anyway I hope my posts have contributed in helping to explain some other beliefs to learn of. I know I feel blessed to understand various beliefs. God bless each of us on our walks of faith. And peace.

It’s always a choice. You can choose these traditions you speak of here which are later traditions of men, or the earliest traditions which were taught by Christ and His Apostles which are the Traditions of God. It’s a simple choice to believe or not believe.

Why can’t you believe what Jesus taught, and the Church has taught since His Ascension? Is it because you think these teachings are wrong? Or is it because you are ashamed to belong to His Church? How does one turn his back on the Church of Jesus Christ? I just cannot understand, please help me understand.

Btw, you can change your affiliation on your profile, but no matter what you do, you cannot wash Latin Rite Catholic off of your soul. Even an excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic, not in communion, but still Catholic.

 

[elvisman]

Thanks Pat. My hope was I was not misinterpreting those Protestant communions.

Of course a Christian of such faith as those Protestants I attempted to explain, might say the Jews disputed whether Christ was the Son of God and came down from heaven. Could this man come down from heaven and later sacrifice His flesh and blood on a cross to bring eternal life?

Or if they believe Christ had already explained He was speaking of a spiritual presence in the verses you sighted in your thread title and not the physical or carnal, He did not stop those who left because He had already explained it to them and they still were hung up on the physical body.

Or to eat and drink in remembrance without first discerning and remembering the sacrifice of His body and blood for us on the cross is what Paul meant would be in an unworthy manner. In other words, don’t eat/drink the bread and wine/juice without first calling to mind the cross.

Christ said to believe in Him for eternal life. So these Protestants might say to “eat” was symbolic language for “believe”. Christ afterall spoke frequently in symbolic language. He was a door or a gate. He told us He was a vine.

It’s all a matter of faith and belief. To even believe in the Catholic Church’s view, it takes having faith in the Church’s interpretation of Herself and in Her traditions.

Anyway I hope my posts have contributed in helping to explain some other beliefs to learn of. I know I feel blessed to understand various beliefs. God bless each of us on our walks of faith. And peace.

** This is one of my favorite Protestant explanations of the so-called “symbolic” or “metaphorical” language Jesus used in John 6. Not because it rings true but because you have to do such fancy Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at this conclusion.**

**When Jesus said he was the *door *(John 10:7) or he was the vine (John 15: 1-6) - he is speaking symbolically. How do we know this? Because he is neither a door nor a vine. He is fully human and fully God.

**However, In John 6, he doesn’t call himself a lion or a wildabeast when he speaks of his flesh, does he? He speaks about the fact that he is FLESH and BLOOD and that we MUST consume him just as the Jews had to consume their Paschal Lamb. He is OUR Paschal Lamb (John 1:29).

When his disciples grumbled about this teaching - he never explained it away as a metaphor or parable as he always did when his teachings were questioned. He said, "It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." In other words, "You guys are NOT thinking with your hearts or faith - you’re thinking as mere fleshly humans, which counts for nothing."

---

The final nail in the Protestant argument is the very next line after the people left him because they couldn’t handle what he was saying:
John 6:67
**Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" **

**He doesn’t even have to explain it to his Apostles! They KNEW what he said, although they didn’t fully understand just HOW they were going to eat and drink him.
All Peter could say was: ***"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.*"

**Tell me something, Matt - if all he meant was “believing” and not “eating” - why would they have left? WHY didn’t he explain what he REALLY meant like he usually did when people asked questions?
**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I would like to add a topic to this discussion that continues to come up but not clarified to me.

Such as the words Faith and Spirit, how are they being used in this discussion of the True presence?

If one has faith that Jesus presence is spiritual? Is this faith dealing with ones emotions, to describe a faith by relating their faith in spiritual terms that denies the true body, blood presence of Jesus Christ?

If the faith being expressed by ones spirit in spiritual terms, then who’s spirit is really present? Which lacks the body, blood of Jesus Christ True presence.

A Catholics faith in the Eucharist is expressed both Spiritual and bodily presence because Jesus is both full human and fully divine. The Eucharist faith expresses both of these because the realization of our faith evidenced in the Eucharist (body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus) from the spiritual realities that exist outside of time that our “flesh” cannot see.

Hebrews 11:1
1 **Faith is the realization **of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen.
3
By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

My faith does not make Jesus true presence appear, Only God does this by His Word. In Holy communion It is God who consumes me, (“Zeal for your house consumes me”) My “Amen” to Jesus presence is my faith expressed in the realization of what is hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Peace be with you all

 

[PJM]

=CMatt25;7548277]Thanks Pat. My hope was I was not misinterpreting those Protestant communions.

Of course a Christian of such faith as those Protestants I attempted to explain, might say the Jews disputed whether Christ was the Son of God and came down from heaven. Could this man come down from heaven and later sacrifice His flesh and blood on a cross to bring eternal life?

Or if they believe Christ had already explained He was speaking of a spiritual presence in the verses you sighted in your thread title and not the physical or carnal, He did not stop those who left because He had already explained it to them and they still were hung up on the physical body.

Or to eat and drink in remembrance without first discerning and remembering the sacrifice of His body and blood for us on the cross is what Paul meant would be in an unworthy manner. In other words, don’t eat/drink the bread and wine/juice without first calling to mind the cross.

Christ said to believe in Him for eternal life. So these Protestants might say to “eat” was symbolic language for “believe”. Christ afterall spoke frequently in symbolic language. He was a door or a gate. He told us He was a vine.

It’s all a matter of faith and belief. To even believe in the Catholic Church’s view, it takes having faith in the Church’s interpretation of Herself and in Her traditions.

Anyway I hope my posts have contributed in helping to explain some other beliefs to learn of. I know I feel blessed to understand various beliefs. God bless each of us on our walks of faith. And peace.

THANK YOU MATT!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by PJM
Can we have a Chairitable Discussion on John 6: 63-64?

John.6 Verses 63 to 64

[Jesus Speaking] “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."

God Bless,

Pat

The REPLY

Romans 8:11:
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.

That “Spirt” my friend is Christ Himself … John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again".

Notice how Saint Paul specifically says “give life to your mortal bodies also.” This clearly means that Jesus “mortal body” (if one can call it that) was given life (at the Resurrection) also. The Eucharist is the Lord’s Supper, His death, Resurrection and Ascenscion. (How the heck do you spell “ascencion”?) As He gave life to Christ’s Body, so He also does in the Eucharistic miracle.

Not quite: The Risen Body of Jesus asumed what our bodies will be like when reunited to our souls at th Final Judgement. A 'Risen and now GLORIFIED AND UNIHIBITED BODY; able to pass through walls and locked doors; able to bi-lociate, able to appear and disapear at Will. It is this New and PERFECT Glorifid Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that we catholics receive in Holy Comunion. NOT a sign, MORE tan a Spirt; the very same Christ born of Mary.

It is clearly His Body here. It is literally His Body as well as His Blood. According to the Church (and correct me if I am wrong Catholics), it is also His Soul and Divinity (Spirit).

YEP…WELL DONE,

God Bless,
Pat

 

[TimothyH]

Any discussion about John 6:63-64 hinges on the meaning of the phrase “spirit and life.”

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (John 6:63)

As Jesus states that his whole discussion of his flesh, blood, food, bread, eating, drinking, etc, are “spirit and life”, we need to look at the word spirit. The word spirit comes from the Latin word “Spiritus” which means “Breath”

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2 NAB)

*In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2 RSV)*Both the NAB and the RSV are given so as to compare how the translators handled the Hebrew words. God’s spirit, which is portrayed as a mighty wind, was hovering over the primordial water and is that through which God created the world.

*the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)*Here again we see God’s spirit in the form of moving air. This time it is giving life to the first man.

*Then he said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus says the Lord GOD: From the four winds come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain that they may come to life. (Ezekiel 37:9)*The spirit of God as the “Four winds” bring life to the dry bones.

*Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." (John 20:21-23)*Catholics will recognize this passage as Jesus granting the authority to forgive sins. When one goes to confession and has his sins forgiven, he is brought back to spiritual life. Notice that Jesus breathes on them and in doing so, he gives them the Holy Spirit… More moving air, more life giving breath, more spiritual life.

***After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow **on land or sea or against any tree. (Revelation 7:1)*Here in Revelation 7 we see God’s Spirit represented by moving air. Echoing the “Four winds” which gave life to the dry bones in Ezekiel, the “Four winds” of the spirit of God are now held back at the end of time. No one else can receive the spirit of God - no one else can be brought back to spiritual life for the end of world is at hand and judgement has come.

All through the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, we see the word “Spirit” used as a synonym for moving air as a mechanism for creating and giving life. This is consistent with the Latin word “Spiritus” which means “Breath”. Catholics declare the truth of God’s Spirit as a life giving force - the breath of life - when we say the creed.

**We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.**So Jesus words make perfect sense. You can go through all sorts of linguistical theological gymnastics and logical contortions to try to make the John 63 fit your theology but the rest of the Bible is clear on the word spirit. Jesus’ words are “Spirit and life”, the very breath of God which gives us life.

He was basically saying “You’re thinking with your head and not your heart. Have faith.”

Little Mary has it exactly correct. In saying “The flesh is of no avail”, Jesus is saying that your eyes will see only bread, your nose will smell only the alcohol, your toungue will taste only wine and that your human intellect and reason will never fully grasp the miracle that he will fully reveal only on the night before he is to die for our sins.

 

[CMatt25]

It’s always a choice. You can choose these traditions you speak of here which are later traditions of men, or the earliest traditions which were taught by Christ and His Apostles which are the Traditions of God. It’s a simple choice to believe or not believe.

Why can’t you believe what Jesus taught, and the Church has taught since His Ascension? Is it because you think these teachings are wrong? Or is it because you are ashamed to belong to His Church? How does one turn his back on the Church of Jesus Christ? I just cannot understand, please help me understand.

Btw, you can change your affiliation on your profile, but no matter what you do, you cannot wash Latin Rite Catholic off of your soul. Even an excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic, not in communion, but still Catholic.

Who said I chose to leave Jesus or turn my back on Him? As a deacon I’m certain you know the Catholic Church recognizes Catholics and other Christians as believers. But I can’t help you further here because it would be off topic.