Can we have a frank discussion about music in Mass?

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So once again–if you LIKE Gregorian chant, you should NOT go to Mass that features Gregorian chant, but instead, you should seek out a Mass that features a style of music that you DON’T like?

That’s what I’m hearing here, folks. It’s OK for Gregorian chant lovers to enjoy their Mass music, but it’s “satisfying ourselves” if we enjoy the Haugen hymns.
 
It is never about us performers, it is about facilitating the congregation to pray through song.
Good intentions. But…Vatican II talks about “active participation” – which includes having the congregation sing. For over 30 years I have taken a weekly poll of the 10 people nearest me at Mass: I count how many are actually singing. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten above 3. In actual fact, it’s all about the choir and individual singers, not the congregation. It’s a performance. If you doubt me, just count the people actually singing next time you go to Mass. Music directors are deluding themselves if they think people are actually singing the songs they choose. They’re not.

As for Gregorian Chant, which someone mentioned above in reference to GIRM, Vatican II said it was to be “given pride of place.” Big joke. I guess people have interpreted “pride of place” as meaning “locked away never to be heard.” Someone above made a completely erroneous comment about the “difficulty” of singing Gregorian Chant. It’s exactly the opposite–ANYONE can sing it. In fact, for a few years I went to a church that always had Gregorian Chant. When I did my little survey of the 10 people around me there, it was always 10 of 10 singing. Even I can sing it, and I can’t handle Happy Birthday.

If you really want to hear Gregorian Chant or polyphany, buy any album by the Tallis Scholars. Or, if you go to Europe (forget the US), you will sometimes run into a Mass where they play “The Coronation Mass” by Mozart or some other similar classic. The crown jewel of Masses. But of course it’s never heard in the US–at least by me.

There is a great book, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing,” by Thomas Day, published 20+ years ago. It goes into the whole sad story.
 
The Lain Mass parish is definitely not drawing in the Catholic teens in our city
And I’m going to make a wild guess that the time of the Latin Mass is either 7 AM or 1 PM–not 9 or 10 or 11 like all the other Masses.
 
No, not at all.

Sundays 7 am and 9 am.

Mondays 12 noon (the church is downtown, so it’s convenient for working people.

Tuesdays- Fridays 6:30 a.m. and Noon

Sat. 8 a.m.

The early time is great for teens who might be interested in the Traditional Latin Mass because they can then head to their own parish and attend the OF Mass with their friends or family if their family expects this.

Also, the large parish that I attend has a 6:00 p.m. Sunday Mass that is popular with teens because of the young man who plays beautiful piano and the youth meetings which are held after the Mass. I attend this Mass often because I work weekends (and because I love the music).

But the 9:00 a.m. Traditional Latin Mass is also an option for teens who would prefer something a little later and who don’t attend our parish…

I think the hours of Masses at the Latin Mass parish are pretty good, actually.

And the priest at the Latin Mass parish is delightful–young, handsome, and highly intelligent and personable. The organist is also a fairly young, very personalbe man; he also teaches the schola. I like both of these gentlemen and enjoy working at their Masses (organ) when I have the opportunity

All of our parishes in our area are liturgically correct and free of any abuses. Applause is usually heard when someone is called to the front to present an announcement about a retreat, a mission, a religious education opportunity, a pilgrimage, etc., but it is just a polite recognition applause for the lay speaker, not raucous cheering. The music in all the parishes (other than the Hispanic parish) is a mix of St. Louis Jesuits and traditional hymns. All of the parishes have organs, except for some of the parishes in the small farm towns. We have always had very conservative bishops who usually manage to be disliked and criticized by our local liberal media personalities and liberal organizations and politicians!

We also are within fairly easy driving distance of one of the largest and most famous megachurches in the world, and we have several smaller (but still large–around 5000 people) megachurches in our city. These attract many young people and actually people of all ages.

But almost all the other churches in our city are losing people. Most of the huge mainline churches, many of which are almost 200 years old, have only a few dozen people left, and a lot of the formerly huge evangelical Protestant churches only have a few hundred people (they used to have thousands of attendees and members). I think this is normal around the U.S.
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In our Latin Mass in our city, the congregation never sings the Gregorian chant or other chant. It is always sung by a choir (schola) of men, although there is one young lady who will sing with them for certain pieces. I know little about various chants, but I know that the music director of the Latin Mass parish DOES know about chant, and he knows which pieces are appropriate for a female singer.

So I would never expect a congregation to sing Gregorian chant. Of course, I’m a convert to Catholicism (2004), and perhaps in the past, the entire congregation joined in on the Gregorian chant? Is this the way it was? Did the congregations join in the Gregorian chant back in the day?

But the Latin Mass did not specifically call for “active participation by the congregation” as you have pointed out that the OF does call for. So I agree with you that it is a matter for concern when the congregation in an OF Mass doesn’t sing. I certainly get frustrated when I see so many people just staring into space, not even opening the hymnal (we have hymnals, not missalettes).

The congregation does sing plainchant, yes, which I think is very ugly even when it is done well and especially when it done poorly. So monotonous, like a drone. Most people sing it in a lower register because they’ve never been taught how to sing properly, and most people in our part of the U.S. sing diphthongs which are grating and horrible. 🤯 They don’t sing through their vowels–so awful. But to be fair, they do the same thing with hymns! It just sounds worse with chant.

My personal opinion on why Catholics (and many Protestants) don’t sing is that they were never taught to sing or read music in school. In our city, during the 1980s and 90s, and even into the 2000s, music was eliminated or greatly cut because everyone considered STEM to be of utmost importance for children and teenagers.

And in the schools that still offered music, traditional singing of songs was curtailed in favor of offering “ethnically-aware” music. In our city, many of the schools offered a “hip hop” class, and the kids would perform hip hop at their programs. Or rap, or jazz (yes, for CHILDREN–aargh!), or various world styles of singing, especially African. Yes, I think that elementary music education should incorporate ethnic music, but NOT at the cost of training young children to read music and sing correctly.

BTW, I know that young children can and do learn to read music. For years, I played for a children’s choir offered by our local music club, and children as young as 6, from all economic backgrounds, picked up sight-singing within a few weeks or months after joining the choir. Music teachers use several methods to teach this skill, and it works!

Schools are starting to see the error of eliminating the arts, and we are seeing many of the music classes re-instated in our city. But we’re still seeing a lot of the ethnic music instead of traditional song-singing, and so i suspect we will continue to see some very bad singing in our churches.
 
So I would never expect a congregation to sing Gregorian chant.
We chant at my parish. Most people sing . You don’t always have to use Gregorian chant. You can use something like ICEL chant. CC watershed has records so that you can learn to sing it by ear. Here is the creed:

 
I’m (high) Lutheran and we use chanted responses such as your example, though not for the Lord’s prayer.
They’re really not that hard to learn by ear, or from a missal.
 
Doesn’t work for me. The Credo III melody helped me memorize the Latin. But I appreciate the effort in trying to get people to sing it.
 
I’m (high) Lutheran and we use chanted responses such as your example, though not for the Lord’s prayer.
They’re really not that hard to learn by ear, or from a missal.
I agree. Chant is not difficult to pick up by ear especially when it is a more simplified version.
 
Again, I am going to an Eastern Catholic Liturgy this weekend and probably more often because I need raw Catholicism. Not Mid-Century Catholicism

Modernized West
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Eastern
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I don’t know about Catholic Churches, but it is definitely the case in my community that the rock band Protestant churches are thriving while the traditional ones are dying. But the rock band churches are just about the ‘worship experience’ which is the music. People go for the same reason they go to a concert, for the music. If the music stopped they’d quit going. So there is really absolutely nothing there.
This has been my experiences as well. An observation I’d like to add is when the smaller, traditional churches try to emulate the praise band churches in an attempt to keep youth and families, it usually ends up backfiring and causes them to lose members even faster. At least, that is what I’ve seen in my experiences.
 
Liturgy is public worship. Post Vatican II, this became clearer; as pre-conciliar worship seemed mostly devotional for many worshippers.

Public worship of God, from its very beginning, has always used music. Recall the Levites who sang around the Ark.
Thank you Deacon. Because a choir is well rehearsed and does a good job, they are performers by some people, while others are very pleased by the choir adding to their worship experience. If it’s not chant, it’s not worthy; if it’s chant, it’s boring and not keeping our teens in the pews. If it’s composer X, it’s a hootenanny; if it’s composer Z, it’s heaven on earth. And, one person even admits to count people singing each weekend. I guess we all go to Mass for various reasons!!

For the 3 choral Masses I direct each weekend, I choose a blended genre of music from traditional, to contemporary, to the modern of today, using composers X, Y, and Z. I plan according the theme of the Mass and choose music that I believe will be singable even to the tone deaf. I do my best and so do my musicians and pray that the people sing. For the most part, they do. You cannot please everyone. Some will refuse to sing in public no matter how well they might know the hymn or song. Oh well…
 
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That Eastern Church is breathtaking! Although I don’t know how fair it is to take the most bland, uninspiring Latin rite parish one can find and compare it to beautiful Eastern rite parish. (But I understand your pain!)
 
And, one person even admits to count people singing each weekend. I guess we all go to Mass for various reasons!!
I do not count, but I do watch, and listen. I want to know what works and what doesn’t. Someone said above that no one ever asked him what he likes. Well, some of us keep up with what the people in the parish actually want and adjust accordingly.
 
MiserereMei25 and mrsdizzyd, I agree that the ornate church is beautiful.

But please allow me to present a different perspective that I hope you will think about.

For those of us who live overly-busy, “cluttered” lives where every day brings a new set of crises and “urgent” tasks–there is something very restful about a “clean” church with very minimal decorations, a monochromatic color scheme, and a simple design featuring straight, comforting lines.

Sometimes some of us find the ornate churches (and other buildings, including our homes) simply too distracting and busy and even off-putting.

Please don’t get me wrong–usually I absolutely love the beautiful old churches with all their stained glass and artwork and statuary and the history!

But I also love a very simple white room with a no art, plain windows, and windows that provide a view of the outdoors. I find this type of church very soothing, and it actually helps me to concentrate on God instead of getting distracted by all the beautiful things around me.

I think there is a lot of beauty in orderly lines, spaces, and light.
 
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…I agree that the ornate church is beautiful.

But please allow me to present a different perspective that I hope you will think about.

For those of us who live overly-busy, “cluttered” lives where every day brings a new set of crises and “urgent” tasks–there is something very restful about a “clean” church with very minimal decorations…
I think this is so true. There is a need for both.
 
For those of us who live overly-busy, “cluttered” lives where every day brings a new set of crises and “urgent” tasks…
What makes you think I don’t live such a life? As a wife and mother of small children I can assure you my days are crazy.
I find this type of church very soothing
I find it very severe and uninspiring. I prefer to worship with as many of my senses engaged as I can muster.

Everyone is different, but there isn’t even a crucifix on the wall in the all white austere church. That ought to be the bare minimum requirement. And, where is the tabernacle?
 
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