Can we HOPE for the Apocatastasis?

[dvdjs]

The recent Vatican opinion piece “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized” seems to suggest that the church never officially taught such a thing, but two Councils of your church quite clearly proclaim that the church does teach it.

The quotes you give from the Councils pertain to those who die in original sin. The Vatican opinion piece talks of those who die without being baptized - formally. Please recognize the difference. These quotes from the Councils cannot be said to quite clearly teach limbo.

Well then, is it your opinion that limbo exists, or does it not?

I don’t see the point of having an opinion on this. My training in theology is very weak compared to people behind the Vatican opinion piece, including Pope Benedict, so what fo you want me to do: reprise their training and study, or just launch a few proof texts and say qed?

I recognize that the Church has always emphasized the importance of am sacramental integration into the Body of Christ, and the mercy of God. I think it is important not to be presumptuous, but also to have hope. That is enough for me.

 

[SeekerM]

Dear brother Hesychios,

Are you sure that Catholics are asking to do away with the Limbus Infantium? From what I’ve read, Catholics have only stressed that it is not dogma, but has always been regarded as a valid theologoumenon.

I’ve not followed up on those recent reports saying that the Pope got rid of that belief. Did he really do that?

You say that the only alternative teaching in the Latin Tradition is that the unbaptised go to hell. But I think the whole point of the insistence that the Limbus Infantium was never a dogma is that the Church has never made any definition with respect to the final fate of infants who die in original sin. So one can’t restrict the matter to just 1) Limbus Infantium or 2) Hell. The fact that the matter has never been defined means that any and all theories are equally valid, so long as it does not contradict the dogmas of Sacred Tradition (for example, it is obviously heterodox to claim that such infants will be reincarnated).

Blessings,
Marduk

If this life is a preperation for the next, why would it be heterdox to suppose that those who die before reaching the age of reason (like my sister, who was born dead, experienced nothing of this life, and never made any choices) might (under those unique circumstances) be reincarnated?

The secound council of Constantinople seems to have condemned “the fabulous pre-extistence of souls” (i.e. the idea that we all existed in an incorporeal state from the beginning, and fell from that state before we were born), and “the monsterous restoration that follows from it” (i.e. the idea that we end up back in an incorporeal state, without a body, or with a spherical body), but where has the Church made it an official dogma that miscaraiges, abortions, and those who die before reaching the age of reason can’t be reincarnated?

Why is the thought that they might be “obviously heterdox”?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I agree with other posters here------Pray Ultimately that God’s Will Be Done. That is all we can Do. But it is NOT Within the Scope of Church Teaching.

 

[Vico]

… but where has the Church made it an official dogma that miscaraiges, abortions, and those who die before reaching the age of reason can’t be reincarnated? …

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1013 Death is the end of man’s earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When “the single course of our earthly life” is completed, [586] we shall not return to other earthly lives: “It is appointed for men to die once.” [587] There is no “reincarnation” after death.
586 Lumen Gentium 48 § 3. (Dogmatic Constution of the Church from Vatican Two)
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb. 9:27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed (cf. Mt. 25:31-46) and not, like the wicked and slothful servants (cf. Mt. 25:26), be ordered to depart into the eternal fire (cf. Mt. 25:41), into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt. 22:13 and 25:30).
587 Heb 9:27 (NAB):
“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Alfonsus]

I think the problem here is that people equate “die in original sin” with “never receiving water baptism.”

The Latin church never equate it that way.
God create baptism as a sure (and normative) vehicle of bringing salvation.
But the Latin church also said, that God is over the Sacraments. That other than the ordinary means that was entrusted to the church, He alone can work in a way we do not understand to offer salvation to a person.

Thus a baby died without baptism, may be cleansed of original sin in a way we do not know. We can only hope.
Will all babies died without baptism will meet the same fate? We do not know.
The church simply does not know, thus not able to make judgment.

The church maintains, someone dies in original sins, will be separated from God for ever.
But does every single one that die without baptism (babies for instance), definitely die without their original sins cleansed while God may provide the grace of sacramental baptism without the normative means?
Simply… we don’t know.

Simply put, “die with original sin intact” do not equal with “die without receiving baptism grace.”

 

[Gregory_I]

Also, are God’s punishments vindictive, or medicinal?

Can he ever punish without the goal of reformation of the one punished?

Or is he vindictive in his punishments?

 

[Vico]

…

But does every single one that die without baptism (babies for instance), definitely die without their original sins cleansed while God may provide the grace of sacramental baptism without the normative means?
Simply… we don’t know.

Simply put, “die with original sin intact” do not equal with “die without receiving baptism grace.”

To “die without their original sins cleansed” is in the Latin Church called death with the “stain of original sin”.

At birth, babies are free of personal sin yet are in need of “sanctification, justice, filial adoption, and inheritance, that they may be brothers and members of Christ, and become dwelling places for the Spirit” [St. John Chrysostom, *Third Baptismal Instruction, no. 6].

Also “Baptisms of desire” and “Baptism of blood” fulfill the requirements when the sacrament of baptism cannot be received due to extraordinary circumstances and they all obtain the same sanctifying grace.

 

[angelic06]

Also, are God’s punishments vindictive, or medicinal?

Can he ever punish without the goal of reformation of the one punished?

Or is he vindictive in his punishments?

It is not God who chooses to punish us. It is we mortals who choose to punish ourselves by obstinately sinning until the end of times.

To all:

W/o being a theologian, I cannot comment on the Apocastasis, but to say: time in this world is short. Make your decision to choose the way of the Father and of Jesus Christ now, while there is still time. Quit trying to speculate whether God may forgive some after this world after they are already damned. If He does, then He does, but if He does not…well, the Church has already warned us. If the King chooses, let Him be merciful, but we have already hear His warnings in the Gospel for the obstinate sinners.

Why keep trying to speculate on whether some may be taken out of hell, unless we are planning on sinning for the remainder of our days?

And bring your infants to baptism as soon as you reasonably can. For we do not know whether or not they are saved, but can only hope that they are. However, while I know nobody who is actively advancing Limbo Infantium, the Church has left the matter open and has not condemned it as heretical, meaning that it is still possible that it does exist. So, bring your children to be baptized…while there is still time.

I can only reiterate Vico’s post #23 and say: “Watch, for ye know neither the day nor the hour.”