Can we judge whether or not someone's sin is mortal?

[rayne89]

That is not what I get out of that. I get that we can’t judge thier soul.
A Catholic woman gets an abortion… knowing that it is wrong… and you know her to personally defend it and refuses to yield to the Church. She says I know what the Church teaches and it is my body and choice. You know she doesn’t go to confession. Therefore we know that they are NOT in a state of grace and should not recieve the eucharist. Thier sin is mortal because they have been educated approached and defended thier disobedience to God. This is the proble why are people so afraid of talking. We bury our heads in the sand in regaurds to our brothers and sisters. Thinking that if we don’t know or have the awkward turtle conversation that we then can’t judge. This is why SO many Catholics are ignorand of Church teaching.

I have a friend who I recently became in touch with after not seeing her since highschool. She confided in me that she had had an abortion in college. I did my best to show her compassion, I gave her the link to project rachel incase she was having difficulties and I prayed for her. Within a few days she asked to come to Mass with me and I mentioned I was going to confession. She said she should probably go too. She was happy after confession even though when she originally told me about the abortion she defended her choice.

I don’t think if I would have told her you are in the state of mortal sin and you risk damnation if you don’t repent that she would have wanted anything to do with me. We have no business judging some else’s soul. Actions yes, absolutely. I am not afraid of speaking the truth and I did gently tell her about my feelings on abortion and I what led me to believe it was wrong.

You can not know all the influences that a person has when they commit sin -family pressure, mental illness, trauma -any number of things. You are saying it is it is not enough to judge the action of a person, that you are entitled and obligated to judge their soul - if we do not we are burrying our heads in the sand and are afraid?

The you must be wiser than the church. Would you like to give me the name of one human being that the church has declared is in hell? Even the church will not pass such a judgement.

 

[palmas85]

where did I talk about mitigating circumstances?
why don’t you read the previous posts more carefully.
no one has said that mitigating circumstances can change the objective fact that a grave action, freely chosen with full knowledge is a mortal sin. What is being debated here is whether or not any person, other than the priest in confession, has the right to tell another individual “You have committed a mortal sin, you are not in state of santifying grace.” The answer is no.

If someone has committed a sin and that sin is mortal due to all the necessary elements being present then why can’t you inform the person what he or she has done? So they won’t feel bad? So they won’t think less of themselves? There are I will admit some situations where there is some doubt as to the motivation behind the sin or the persons culpability in committing it. But those situations are few and far between indeed.

In the vast majority of cases people commit sins freely of their own volition and without much in the way of factors that would mitigate them. That is a cold hard fact that I learned in over 30 years of law enforcement.

In short, I think in most cases advising people that in all probability they may have committed a mortal sin is not a bad thing and in fact **IS **charitable, since you are showing care and concern for that persons soul.

Call it tough love. Its better than allowing people to believe that they are all right and in no danger.

Remember as it was once writte,

ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR EVIL TO TRIUMPH IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING

 

[Potato1]

I have a friend who I recently became in touch with after not seeing her since highschool. She confided in me that she had had an abortion in college. I did my best to show her compassion, I gave her the link to project rachel incase she was having difficulties and I prayed for her. Within a few days she asked to come to Mass with me and I mentioned I was going to confession. She said she should probably go too. She was happy after confession even though when she originally told me about the abortion she defended her choice.

I don’t think if I would have told her you are in the state of mortal sin and you risk damnation if you don’t repent that she would have wanted anything to do with me. We have no business judging some else’s soul. Actions yes, absolutely. I am not afraid of speaking the truth and I did gently tell her about my feelings on abortion and I what led me to believe it was wrong.

You can not know all the influences that a person has when they commit sin -family pressure, mental illness, trauma -any number of things. You are saying it is it is not enough to judge the action of a person, that you are entitled and obligated to judge their soul - if we do not we are burrying our heads in the sand and are afraid?

The you must be wiser than the church. Would you like to give me the name of one human being that the church has declared is in hell? Even the church will not pass such a judgement.

perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying… This thread is not about who goes to heaven or hell (Actually that is where this thread was born from so you can see that they are different subjects) and the situation you describe is vastly different than the one I described. One can decide when another is in a state of mortal sin if the three grounds have been met. THAT IS WHY IT IS IN THE CATECHISM!!! PRIESTS DO THIS ALL THE TIME IN CONFESSION. How you handled that is great. pat on the back to you but it has NOTHING to do with the point of whether someone can tell another if they are not in a state of grace. no please stop judging me as being judgemental when I am only speaking the Truth. If we cannot judge weather one is in a state of mortal sin… using this judgemnet rationally free from passion and hate. knowing all the facts… then why would a Catholic ever go to confession where a preist (a human person) helps you to determine exactly what is mortal or venial.

 

[Potato1]

You can not know all the influences that a person has when they commit sin -family pressure, mental illness, trauma -any number of things. You are saying it is it is not enough to judge the action of a person, that you are entitled and obligated to judge their soul - if we do not we are burrying our heads in the sand and are afraid?
.

Yes you can know all the influences if you have a CONVERSATION. Gees why is everyone so ready to walk on glass in the face of evil. GENTLY talk to people (kind of like you did) now we may disagree or differ on the tact to take with any given person… but ultimatly it is an act of LOVE to talk, teach. help, show compassion and get people to repent. Or one day you will know exactly all who are in hell and wonder if you could have helped them out. Agreed this must be done with kid gloves sometimes but it must be done or your religion is very selfish.

 

[drafdog]

We may denounce the sinfulness of others, but we are never qualified to judge the degree of their sinfulness.
THAT they sin is a given; how SERIOUSLY they sin is known to God alone. Don’t go there.

Matthew

 

[Nick]

I just found this in the AAA forum

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

then why would a Catholic ever go to confession where a preist (a human person) helps you to determine exactly what is mortal or venial.

That’s the priests job and he is given special graces to determine this. But it gets complicated when it’s just two laypeople. We’re not supposed to judge each other, but we should help guide each other.

I can’t help but think about how people must have judged Mary when she got pregnant before she was married. It looked to everyone else like a mortal sin, but in reality it was a great sign of holiness. It’s hard to know from the outside and silly to waste time discerning other people’s sins when we have plenty of our own to look at.

 

[marybee]

That’s the priests job and he is given special graces to determine this. But it gets complicated when it’s just two laypeople. We’re not supposed to judge each other, but we should help guide each other.

I can’t help but think about how people must have judged Mary when she got pregnant before she was married. It looked to everyone else like a mortal sin, but in reality it was a great sign of holiness. It’s hard to know from the outside and silly to waste time discerning other people’s sins when we have plenty of our own to look at.

Well said!

 

[Potato1]

That’s the priests job and he is given special graces to determine this. But it gets complicated when it’s just two laypeople. We’re not supposed to judge each other, but we should help guide each other.

I can’t help but think about how people must have judged Mary when she got pregnant before she was married. It looked to everyone else like a mortal sin, but in reality it was a great sign of holiness. It’s hard to know from the outside and silly to waste time discerning other people’s sins when we have plenty of our own to look at.

Bear with me here… My daughter comes to me having done something wrong, she is looking for guidance and wants to know if the sin is mortal. we have a conversation involving her thought process, we discuss her alternatives, beliefs, what the church teaches and why it teaches that. We can or even just I can see if that sin is mortal. We are called as Christians to help our fellow people, just as you would your own child. Talk to people, educate IF you have a conversation then you have knowledge and if you have knowledge then you have the ability to judge. Not weather that person is in hell but if thier soul is wounded. The prist analogy is rediculous. We are all called to be prists prohets and kings. Normaly we cannot administer the sacraments because we don’t have the graces (with the exeption of emergency baptism.)

The “I imagine Mary” view is nice if it helps you but it is innacurate and shows ignorance of the time and the scriptures. It was common during the betrothal period for people to bear children, it was nothing like “unwed mothers” today. Joseph would have been the only one who knew the baby was not his. Why is it that in our zeal for Mary we overlook the protection of Joseph. After all it was his decision to make this public or not and have her punished by the law.

Talk. Evangelize, teach. Or if it suits you better, bury your head in the sand so you don’t have to “judge” and let people suffer in todays world without helping them. Afterall then you wont have to wory about being a hypocrite.
I think instead of “tollerance” or “I don’t judge” we need to hear the phrase, “Hey, why don’t you go to confession with me” (if they are Catholic) or “why dont you ask your heavenly father to help you take this burden and stain away, I can help you to pray” Can you imagine our society if we preached repentance as much as we preach tolerance?

 

[BigRedpg51]

Nick,

God…and God alone…knows the disposition of a person’s heart. The culpability of a person’s actions when committing a grave sinful act is not determined by that person…or any other, for that matter. Only God knows the truth as to whether that act was a mortal sin…we can only judge for ourselves on our own actions – not on someone else’s.

Sometimes I’ve gone to confession and confessed what I thought to be a mortal sin, only to be corrected by the priest that it was not. There are times when our guilt becomes so overpowering that it impairs our objectivity, and thus we cannot look at our own actions and judge them accurately (regarding degree of sinfulness). God is the only One Who knows for sure.

And, regarding determining whether someone else has committed a mortal sin…there is no way for us to know, absolutely. God, alone, knows. In truth, it’s not for us to judge anyway.

When tempted to judge whether another person has committed a sin, try this little exercise. Point your finger at that person (like your hand was a gun). Notice that one finger is pointing at the person…but three fingers are pointing back at you. There’s a lesson here: before we are tempted to judge others, we must first look at our own sins. Often times, the reason why we “see” the sins of others is because we have those same weaknesses in ourselves. For instance, if I recognize what appears to be ‘pride’ in another person, very likely it’s because I have ‘pride’ myself.

A truly humble person does not look at the sins of others. A truly humble person only loves…unconditionally.

God bless you, Nick.
John

 

[gardenswithkids]

Bear with me here… My daughter comes to me having done something wrong, she is looking for guidance and wants to know if the sin is mortal. we have a conversation involving her thought process, we discuss her alternatives, beliefs, what the church teaches and why it teaches that. We can or even just I can see if that sin is mortal. …

Again, I think there is still a confussion of terms. Remember three condtions must exist for a sin to be a “mortal sin”: grave matter, full knowledge and full consent of the will. We can discuss actions and determine if they are seriously wrong, (i.e. objectively mortal sins as they deal with grave matter.) We can even help someone examine their thought processes of why they did what they did and what they might have done better. We can encourage confession. But we still do not know all the factors that God will take into account when He judges the sin-the person herself may not even know all the factors!

Let’s take that hypothetical example and now say we learn five months later that your daughter has a tumor the size of a golf ball in her brain. Brain injury can result in significant changes in a person’s behavior and may lesson their ability to “fully consent”. A few months ago, you and your daughter assumed she was in a state of mortal sin for some actions which she and you both knew were objectively seriously wrong (i.e objective mortal sins), but now we learned of mitigating factors that we didn’t know of at the time. The actions were still seriously wrong, but perhaps due to the brain tumor she could not give full consent of the will-- therefore didn’t commit subjectively mortal sin.

Yet we should confess and encourage others to confess sins which are objectively mortal sins, rather than just hoping the person had a brain tumor or some other excuse. The Sacrament of Confession isn’t limited to only those who think they are in a state of mortal sin. If we recieve and encourage others to regularly recieve the Sacrament of Confession, we may avoid some of the whole “mortal verses venial” discussion because all sins–great or small–offend God. If anyone doesn’t think they commit even small sins, then they are greatly decieved, (possilbly not just about small matters.)

---

More food for thought: On our own, we don’t have the omnipotence to determine if the person possessed full knowlege or consent neccesary to qualify a sin as “mortal sin”. But every once in a while I hear of persons like Padre Pio with a gift from God to read souls. Short of direct revelation from God, our judgement is limited to objective actions (but many use the term “mortal sin” for objectively wrong actions that relate to serious matters.)

 

[Potato1]

Again, I think there is still a confussion of terms. Remember three condtions must exist for a sin to be a “mortal sin”: grave matter, full knowledge and full consent of the will. We can discuss actions and determine if they are seriously wrong, (i.e. objectively mortal sins as they deal with grave matter.) We can even help someone examine their thought processes of why they did what they did and what they might have done better. We can encourage confession. But we still do not know all the factors that God will take into account when He judges the sin-the person herself may not even know all the factors!

Let’s take that hypothetical example and now say we learn five months later that your daughter has a tumor the size of a golf ball in her brain. Brain injury can result in significant changes in a person’s behavior and may lesson their ability to “fully consent”. A few months ago, you and your daughter assumed she was in a state of mortal sin for some actions which she and you both knew were objectively seriously wrong (i.e objective mortal sins), but now we learned of mitigating factors that we didn’t know of at the time. The actions were still seriously wrong, but perhaps due to the brain tumor she could not give full consent of the will-- therefore didn’t commit subjectively mortal sin.

Yet we should confess and encourage others to confess sins which are objectively mortal sins, rather than just hoping the person had a brain tumor or some other excuse. The Sacrament of Confession isn’t limited to only those who think they are in a state of mortal sin. If we recieve and encourage others to regularly recieve the Sacrament of Confession, we may avoid some of the whole “mortal verses venial” discussion because all sins–great or small–offend God. If anyone doesn’t think they commit even small sins, then they are greatly decieved, (possilbly not just about small matters.)

---

More food for thought: On our own, we don’t have the omnipotence to determine if the person possessed full knowlege or consent neccesary to qualify a sin as “mortal sin”. But every once in a while I hear of persons like Padre Pio with a gift from God to read souls. Short of direct revelation from God, our judgement is limited to objective actions (but many use the term “mortal sin” for objectively wrong actions that relate to serious matters.)

LOL I am sorry I just can’t make the old brain tumor leap, I guess you and I see God and the world differently. Peace.

 

[lucy_g_patterso]

No, I doubt we can every see inside a persons motives. We would have to be inside their heads at the time and that of course is impossible.

Lucy

 

[johnstown_johnn]

So you don’t love your neighbor enough to help them get to Heaven, or care if they might spend enternity in Hell?

How is that Christian Love?

Amen. I totally agree with your analysis.

 

[Orionthehunter]

LOL I am sorry I just can’t make the old brain tumor leap, I guess you and I see God and the world differently. Peace.

Potato, I think you are missing the point that so many are trying to explain to you.

Let’s take an easy one. Abortion. We all know that it an objectively grave matter. One who commits an objectively grave matter with full knowledge and full consent has freely chosen to commit a mortal sin.

However, the Church is quite clear that only God knows and judges the extent of their knowledge and consent. Even the sinner might not fully understand what they did or how other forces restricted full consent. In this situation, we don’t know how God sees the pressure put on the scared woman by her boyfriend/husband or other circumstances only He can see. All we know is that she committed a objectively grave sin. Because of other circumstances, God may see through His perfect eyes how it is venial.

Even a priest in confession doesn’t determine/judge their consent or knowledge.

As Catholics, we are required to deny ourselves the Eucharist when we know we have committed a sin that we know to be grave matter until we come before Christ in the Sacrament of Reconciliation in humily, contrition, and resolve to not do it again.

This is an important distinction. To be effective ministers of the Good News, we can’t present ourselves as God because that is its own sin.

Your “tough love” can be charitable and effective ministry when guided by the Holy Spirit. But we are not the judge- God is. Our tough love message has to be honest and complete. What the person did is objective grave matter for which they need to reconcile themselves with God. This is not ambiguous and this is what the Church teaches.

But for us to claim omnipotent knowledge of what was in the heart of the sinner at the time of the sin is more than presumptious, it is sinful.

 

[Nick]

Even a priest in confession doesn’t determine/judge their consent or knowledge.

I think I read something to this effect. The priest acts as a judge in the Sacrament of confession not in the sense of determining what you are guilty of, but in determining if you are truly sorry for what you have accused yourself of. Do I understand the role of the priest as judge here correctly? Thanks.

 

[Potato1]

Potato, I think you are missing the point that so many are trying to explain to you.

Let’s take an easy one. Abortion. We all know that it an objectively grave matter. One who commits an objectively grave matter with full knowledge and full consent has freely chosen to commit a mortal sin.

However, the Church is quite clear that only God knows and judges the extent of their knowledge and consent. Even the sinner might not fully understand what they did or how other forces restricted full consent. In this situation, we don’t know how God sees the pressure put on the scared woman by her boyfriend/husband or other circumstances only He can see. All we know is that she committed a objectively grave sin. Because of other circumstances, God may see through His perfect eyes how it is venial.

Even a priest in confession doesn’t determine/judge their consent or knowledge.

As Catholics, we are required to deny ourselves the Eucharist when we know we have committed a sin that we know to be grave matter until we come before Christ in the Sacrament of Reconciliation in humily, contrition, and resolve to not do it again.

This is an important distinction. To be effective ministers of the Good News, we can’t present ourselves as God because that is its own sin.

Your “tough love” can be charitable and effective ministry when guided by the Holy Spirit. But we are not the judge- God is. Our tough love message has to be honest and complete. What the person did is objective grave matter for which they need to reconcile themselves with God. This is not ambiguous and this is what the Church teaches.

But for us to claim omnipotent knowledge of what was in the heart of the sinner at the time of the sin is more than presumptious, it is sinful.

Please understand that I I DO UNDERSTAND what people are saying. I disagree, I thought that my last post was clear on that. I guess you and I see the world and God differenty. Can we leave it at that or do you want to beat your view into me?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Please understand that I I DO UNDERSTAND what people are saying. I disagree, I thought that my last post was clear on that. I guess you and I see the world and God differenty. Can we leave it at that or do you want to beat your view into me?

Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that you have the wisdom and knowledge to determine what was in the heart of a person with regard to their “full knowledge” and their capacity to give “full consent” when they sinned? Even the Church doesn’t allow that the sinner him/herself has this wisdom and knowledge independent of whisperings of the Holy Spirit to their individual conscience. It certainly doesn’t teach that it gives the average person (maybe your claim is you are supernaturally non-average) to have such wisdom (on occassion, the Holy Spirit has been known to allow people like Padre Pio to see into the souls of people).

If you are saying that, you are claiming to have knowledge and wisdom of God. This my friend is a most grave matter. Pardon me for my bluntness but we are sometimes called to Tough Love. Just to be clear, I don’t claim to be able to see into your soul and determine if you are saying it w/ full knowledge and consent so I don’t know if you have committed a mortal sin, just objectively grave matter.

This has nothing to do w/ how we see the world or God, unless you claim to be equal to Him. If this is your claim, our difference is not in how we see God but how you compare to Him.

 

[Potato1]

Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that you have the wisdom and knowledge to determine what was in the heart of a person with regard to their “full knowledge” and their capacity to give “full consent” when they sinned? Even the Church doesn’t allow that the sinner him/herself has this wisdom and knowledge independent of whisperings of the Holy Spirit to their individual conscience. It certainly doesn’t teach that it gives the average person to have such wisdom (on occassion, the Holy Spirit has been known to allow people like Padre Pio to see into the souls of people).

If you are saying that, you are claiming to have knowledge and wisdom of God. This my friend is a most grave matter. Pardon me for my bluntness but we are sometimes called to Tough Love. Just to be clear, I don’t claim to be able to see into your soul and determine if you are saying it w/ full knowledge and consent so I don’t know if you have committed a mortal sin, just objectively grave matter.

This has nothing to do w/ how we see the world or God, unless you claim to be equal to Him. If this is your claim, our difference is not in how we see God but how you compare to Him.

Wow! you really have no idea what I am saying do you? I think it would be best if we just left well enough alone. I respectfull bow out of this conversation. I feel that I have explained something clear enough on that yes, we can judge whether someones sin is mortal SOMETIMES, just as we judge what we confess. I know several peole, ok most people I know are commiting mortal sins even today. Now what thier culpability or punishment is is up to God but thier sins are sins That is why we have ohhh what are those things again… ummmmmm oh yeah, COMMANDMENTS. These help us

 

[Potato1]

Maybe I don’t understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that you have the wisdom and knowledge to determine what was in the heart of a person with regard to their “full knowledge” and their capacity to give “full consent” when they sinned? Even the Church doesn’t allow that the sinner him/herself has this wisdom and knowledge independent of whisperings of the Holy Spirit to their individual conscience. It certainly doesn’t teach that it gives the average person (maybe your claim is you are supernaturally non-average) to have such wisdom (on occassion, the Holy Spirit has been known to allow people like Padre Pio to see into the souls of people).

If you are saying that, you are claiming to have knowledge and wisdom of God. This my friend is a most grave matter. Pardon me for my bluntness but we are sometimes called to Tough Love. Just to be clear, I don’t claim to be able to see into your soul and determine if you are saying it w/ full knowledge and consent so I don’t know if you have committed a mortal sin, just objectively grave matter.

This has nothing to do w/ how we see the world or God, unless you claim to be equal to Him. If this is your claim, our difference is not in how we see God but how you compare to Him.

Having read and thought about this you are right and I am wrong. I have done a one 180, I ask God, and you to have mercy on my sould for I fear I have commited a mortal sin of presumption here. Thank you I know have clarity to change my ways and not commit this sin anymore.