Can we judge whether or not someone's sin is mortal?

[Orionthehunter]

But has the Church declared that there are souls in hell, but that we don’t know who they are?

Based on our understanding of Scripture and Revelation, it is reasonable to conclude that there are human souls in Hell but to assert that we grasp how God will apply Divine Mercy is to me a bit presumptuous. We know that Lucifer and his band are there.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The Church teaches that one who dies with an unrepentant mortal sin will end up in hell. She has not declared anyone, specifically, to be there.

Didn’t Jesus say about His betrayer: “…it would better had he not been born…”

Anyone who has been excommunicated from the Church and dies in that state never making restittution is also condemned.

 

[Nick]

… but to assert that we grasp how God will apply Divine Mercy is to me a bit presumptuous.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Also:

Does the Church say that the personal sin committed by Adam was a mortal sin?

Does the Church say that when we inherit original sin that we are inheriting a mortal sin?

 

[Nick]

Didn’t Jesus say about His betrayer: “…it would better had he not been born…”

Anyone who has been excommunicated from the Church and dies in that state never making restittution is also condemned.

Do excommunicated people go to hell?

 

[Orionthehunter]

What exactly do you mean by this?

Also:

Does the Church say that the personal sin committed by Adam was a mortal sin?

Does the Church say that when we inherit original sin that we are inheriting a mortal sin?

What I mean is that Divine Mercy is the exclusive perogative of God. He has not revealed to us how He measures Divine Justice vs. Divine Mercy with regard to Salvation. For us to claim we understand a perogative that is exclusively God’s is presumptuous.

With regard to your questions, I tried to address them as have a few others back in the posts around 50-60. However, your questions are slightly changed by nuance. Let me take another stab.

Does the Church say that the personal sin committed by Adam was a mortal sin? While obviously grave matter, in my mind, God appears to intimate in Genesis and other references that it was done w/ full knowledge and consent and thus was a mortal sin. At the same time, God includes the discourse of the pressure of Eve to be introduced as a potential mitigating factor. In my view, the more severe chastisement of Adam (vs. that of Eve) is related to his failure to defend his wife from evil. This is distinct from his eating of the apple and may have been Adam’s mortal sin.

However, Scripture and the Church doesn’t make a definite statement that we can absolutely rely. I think your question is mostly in the realm of a matter of theological speculation and not an article of faith.

Does the Church say that when we inherit original sin that we are inheriting a mortal sin? No. Mortal sin by definition is personal and must be done w/ our full knowledge and consent. Neither of these are present for us personally.

However, what we do inherit is the consequences of this sin. And these consequences for both Adam/Eve and ourselves are potentially mortal if we don’t reconcile ourselves to God.

While related to the same act, by definition, apply differently to us as compared to Adam and Eve.

 

[Nick]

What I mean is that Divine Mercy is the exclusive perogative of God. He has not revealed to us how He measures Divine Justice vs. Divine Mercy with regard to Salvation. For us to claim we understand a perogative that is exclusively God’s is presumptuous.

I am sorry I still don’t understand what you are saying. Maybe you could provide an example.

However, what we do inherit is the consequences of this sin. And these consequences for both Adam/Eve and ourselves are potentially mortal if we don’t reconcile ourselves to God.

While related to the same act, by definition, apply differently to us as compared to Adam and Eve

The Church teaches that it is not possible to have the Beatific Vision if one dies in the state of original sin (I don’t know if this is exactly how it is phrased, but it is something like this). What do you mean by “potentially mortal”?

 

[Orionthehunter]

from Nick: I am sorry I still don’t understand what you are saying. Maybe you could provide an example.

God has the exclusive authority to exercise Divine Mercy to grant to eternal salvation. God has the exclusive authority to exercise Divine Justice to condemn us to Hell. How He measures these two is His exclusive perogative. For us to claim we KNOW how He will judge is presumptious.

For instance, two married people are having an affair. While together, they die in a car wreck. They both have committed a objectively mortal act. However, when God considers the hearts of the two adulterers, He grants to one Divine Mercy and eternal bliss and to the other Divine Justice and eternal torment. At least in this life, we can’t grasp why He did as He did.

From Nick: The Church teaches that it is not possible to have the Beatific Vision if one dies in the state of original sin (I don’t know if this is exactly how it is phrased, but it is something like this). What do you mean by “potentially mortal”?

This is not true. The recent determination by Pope Benedict with regard to Limbo and unbaptized babies that die before they can be accountable for their sinful acts gives a glimpse of the point I tried to make above.

We know that the removal of original sin makes us a Child of God and opens to us the opportunity for eternal bliss. This the Church teaches.

However, just as the Church recently acknowledged with regard to unbaptized babies, so it is with regard to even adults who because of an obstacle prevents them from being baptized. We just don’t know how God will measure Divine Mercy vs. Divine Justice.

 

[Nick]

I suggest that you talk to an apologist on here who could give a better explanation than me. But according to my God, Man, and The Universe class from the Catholic Distance University I think you should check out what Lyons, 1274 and Florence, 1438 have to say about original sin.

I am not going to be participating in the forums here for awhile.

 

[volzcpa]

Judgment, in the biblical sense, is the imputing of guilt upon another, a condemnation of another. This judgment is reserved only to God. Acts 10: 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead. Matt 7: 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.” Luke 6: 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

However, we must make moral judgments. We must judge what acts are morally wrong. We must point out to our brother that something he is doing is intrinsically evil and/or gravely disordered and that he is hurting himself if he continues doing something that is objectively evil. Matt 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 2 Tim 2: 24-25 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who participated, this thread is now closed. Please start new threads for non-OP related topics.