Can we know anything absolutely?

[AlanFromWichita]

On several other threads, I have been debating people who claim they know as an absolute fact that X.

Where X is any statement, from any source.

Examples:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the world was created in six days.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is written figuratively.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is the absolute, literal truth.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that God is pleased with X”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is infinite”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is finite”

I got to thinking about these things, and realized they have one thing in common.

Every one of them is, in essence, a direct challenge to God. When we claim we know something beyond any doubt whatsoever, then from our claim we can logically conclude that there are no possible exceptions, hence not even God can think of an exception or loophole. If we make that our claim, then we are putting God into a box, not letting Him think anything we don’t know how to think ourselves, and there can be no chance of receiving correction or instruction from Him.

Something to think about.
1 Cor 8:

2
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3
But if one loves God, one is known by him.

Can anyone think of a situation in which we can honestly and humbly make any claim with absolute certainty – so certain that we know for a fact that God Himself can’t refute?

Alan

 

[FCCopleston]

On several other threads, I have been debating people who claim they know as an absolute fact that X.

Where X is any statement, from any source.

Examples:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the world was created in six days.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is written figuratively.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is the absolute, literal truth.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that God is pleased with X”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is infinite”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is finite”

I got to thinking about these things, and realized they have one thing in common.

Every one of them is, in essence, a direct challenge to God. When we claim we know something beyond any doubt whatsoever, then from our claim we can logically conclude that there are no possible exceptions, hence not even God can think of an exception or loophole. If we make that our claim, then we are putting God into a box, not letting Him think anything we don’t know how to think ourselves, and there can be no chance of receiving correction or instruction from Him.

Something to think about.

Can anyone think of a situation in which we can honestly and humbly make any claim with absolute certainty – so certain that we know for a fact that God Himself can’t refute?

Alan

For one, that Jesus Christ is God, Who became incarnate by the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary, suffered, was crucified, was buried, and Who rose again on behalf of the whole world.

If you are asking whether** I** am “absolutely certain” of it, and whether** I** am “without doubt,” then I must confess that my faith suffers the fires of uncertainty as frequently, or more so, than the anyone else’s. But, thankfully, reality does not depend upon our certainty (if it did, then every time a solipsist died, the world would end).

Let God be true and every man a liar.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[piejesu]

I was going to say with great confidence; I know absolutely that one day I will die!

Then I had this thought…I wonder if Enoch ever said that?

So now I have to say; I am 99.99999999999999999999% sure that one day I will die…absolutely!

 

[fhansen]

On several other threads, I have been debating people who claim they know as an absolute fact that X.

Where X is any statement, from any source.

Examples:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the world was created in six days.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is written figuratively.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is the absolute, literal truth.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that God is pleased with X”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is infinite”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is finite”

I got to thinking about these things, and realized they have one thing in common.

Every one of them is, in essence, a direct challenge to God. When we claim we know something beyond any doubt whatsoever, then from our claim we can logically conclude that there are no possible exceptions, hence not even God can think of an exception or loophole. If we make that our claim, then we are putting God into a box, not letting Him think anything we don’t know how to think ourselves, and there can be no chance of receiving correction or instruction from Him.

Something to think about.

Can anyone think of a situation in which we can honestly and humbly make any claim with absolute certainty – so certain that we know for a fact that God Himself can’t refute?

Alan

Knowledge that comes from God is, by definition, revelation. As such it cannot be proven-and yet, without it, there is no Christian faith. So we either believe that knowledge has been revealed to us, knowledge that cannot be gained in any other way-or we don’t. I know by the knowledge received by the gift of faith that the resurrection was an actual fact. That’s not a challenge to God, since He revealed it.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

On several other threads, I have been debating people who claim they know as an absolute fact that X…

I have this discussion all the time with Atheist! They say they are men of science so they cannot accept god. I ask them what part of science lets you know the car will start tomorrow, or the sun will rise, or you will be alive, and yet your belief is good enough for you to plan your life but unacceptable for god? The fact is we truly know practically nothing; we believe the car will start, the sun will rise, we will live to see it, god exists, the church will lead us… That is faith at its core.

 

[hansgeorg]

On several other threads, I have been debating people who claim they know as an absolute fact that X.

Where X is any statement, from any source.

Examples:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the world was created in six days.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is written figuratively.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that Genesis is the absolute, literal truth.”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that God is pleased with X”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is infinite”
“I know absolutely and without a doubt, that the universe is finite”

What about:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt that I myself exist”?

I got to thinking about these things, and realized they have one thing in common.

Every one of them is, in essence, a direct challenge to God. When we claim we know something beyond any doubt whatsoever, then from our claim we can logically conclude that there are no possible exceptions, hence not even God can think of an exception or loophole. If we make that our claim, then we are putting God into a box, not letting Him think anything we don’t know how to think ourselves, and there can be no chance of receiving correction or instruction from Him.

Something to think about.

Can anyone think of a situation in which we can honestly and humbly make any claim with absolute certainty – so certain that we know for a fact that God Himself can’t refute?

Alan

Two: when God put himself in a box by revelation - even if the box is a manger - and when he put us in a box that he shared when coming down to the manger.

 

[hansgeorg]

I was going to say with great confidence; I know absolutely that one day I will die!

Then I had this thought…I wonder if Enoch ever said that?

Enoch and Eliah will return and be martyred.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

What about:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt that I myself exist”?..

Yes, now exactly when did you start to exist, and when will you stop existing? ( are we talking soul or body?)

 

[Gem]

Knowledge that comes from God is, by definition, revelation. As such it cannot be proven-and yet, without it, there is no Christian faith. So we either believe that knowledge has been revealed to us, knowledge that cannot be gained in any other way-or we don’t. I know by the knowledge received by the gift of faith that the resurrection was an actual fact. That’s not a challenge to God, since He revealed it.

The above is perfectly stated. We know in the sense that those things have been revealed (told) to us by a Church which is, we believe, guided by the Holy Spirit. We “know” by faith, which we feel in our hearts to be true. If anything about God were incontroverible on any level, then faith would not be required and our relationship with God would not be based on love, but rather on fear, force, intimidation or cold, logical self-preservation. Of course, some do base their relationship on this, but this is not the goal.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Save, cogito ergo sum, all other axioms may be doubted. However, the act of doubting does prove the existence of the doubter.

Nothing else can be known absolutely.

 

[hazcompat]

Jesus christ is our fathers simple plan for salvation since before time began.

Jesus is lord

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Many an atheist is willing to say he knows absolutely that God does not exist. How he knows this is anybody’s guess. The atheist who concedes just a bit might say he is 99% certain that God does not exist. I have yet to find out how he arrives at 99% as opposed to 79% or 49% or 29% or 9%.

 

[lemondiesel]

Can anyone think of a situation in which we can honestly and humbly make any claim with absolute certainty – so certain that we know for a fact that God Himself can’t refute?

Alan

“I am” and you don’t even have to say it, you can just cognitively think it. I would also say with certainity that we only know of reality; our perspective is too limited to know how reality came to be which allowed us to know. If that makes sense.

What about:
“I know absolutely and without a doubt that I myself exist”?

Agreed, the above post is applied to you too.

Many an atheist is willing to say he knows absolutely that God does not exist. How he knows this is anybody’s guess. The atheist who concedes just a bit might say he is 99% certain that God does not exist. I have yet to find out how he arrives at 99% as opposed to 79% or 49% or 29% or 9%.

(imo) I think the atheists make such claims because of the statement “the universe works just the way it is suppose to.” I agree, however, the universe was started in an instant so it most certainly can end with one.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you all for so many excellent thoughts on this issue. I don’t have time to reply now; I have to go pick up my daughter from school. Hopefully I will get back here later this afternoon and make some comments then.



Alan

 

[greylorn]

Yes— mathematics.

2+2=4 is an absolute truth which God cannot disagree with or change.

This assumes the customary definitions for the numerals and mathematical symbols.

Likewise various advanced forms of mathematical statements, geometry, trigonometry, the theorems of calculus, vector algebra, etc.

That is why math is the only thing upon which all cultures and religions are required to agree.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Yes— mathematics.

2+2=4 is an absolute truth which God cannot disagree with or change.

This assumes the customary definitions for the numerals and mathematical symbols.

Likewise various advanced forms of mathematical statements, geometry, trigonometry, the theorems of calculus, vector algebra, etc.

That is why math is the only thing upon which all cultures and religions are required to agree.

Really, if it is 2 ft to the halfway point between you and a door, and 2 feet from the halfway point to the door, thus the door is four feet away, and you start walking toward the door what is the last half way point you cross?

If a car travels two mile in one hour, and repeats that a second time does it really go 4 miles? Or did it really go farther because the earth rotated during those 2 hours, and the universe expanded during that 2 hours, and the galaxy also moved during those 2 hours so how far did the car really travel?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Yes— mathematics.

2+2=4 is an absolute truth which God cannot disagree with or change.

This assumes the customary definitions for the numerals and mathematical symbols.

Likewise various advanced forms of mathematical statements, geometry, trigonometry, the theorems of calculus, vector algebra, etc.

That is why math is the only thing upon which all cultures and religions are required to agree.

That’s just flat out wrong.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics#Foundational_crisis

 

[lemondiesel]

2+2=4 is an absolute truth which God cannot disagree with or change.

Assuming 2 is 2, and you didn’t just round 1.8764928724 and 1.92472624672187 both into 2s.

 

[greylorn]

Really, if it is 2 ft to the halfway point between you and a door, and 2 feet from the halfway point to the door, thus the door is four feet away, and you start walking toward the door what is the last half way point you cross?

If a car travels two mile in one hour, and repeats that a second time does it really go 4 miles? Or did it really go farther because the earth rotated during those 2 hours, and the universe expanded during that 2 hours, and the galaxy also moved during those 2 hours so how far did the car really travel?

Thank you for the puzzles. The first is a bad rewording of one of Xeno’s paradoxes, which has to do with infinity math. The answer is not definable, and the puzzle may well be what led Newton and Leibnitz to develop the fundamental theorems of differential calculus.

Your second question omitted effects like angular displacements due to the earth’s axial wobble, the latitude of the car, and the earth’s angular position with respect to the moon, sun, and other gravitationally significant objects, plus a number of other arcane effects. But I understand what you are saying in both arguments.

I was careful to use the single, simple word, mathematics. Didn’t mention any form of applied mathematics. No references to bean counting, logical problems, or complex problems in relativistic spherical trigonometry involving lots of unknown variables.

The application of math to real-world problems is a different issue from pure math. That is because it involves measurements, which are difficult to make and subject to error. (Regarding your 2nd example, for instance, how do we know that the car actually went precisely 2 miles? Is its odometer a precision instrument with another twenty decimal digits after the “tenths-of-a-mile” number, capable of dynamically self-calibrating for tire wear during the trip?)

Mathematics applied to real-world problems is itself always perfect. But our measurements of real-world conditions are always subject to error. Mathematics is used to take measurement error into account— measurements of physical parameters always include determinations of the amount of error to which a given measurement is subject.

But you knew that all along.

My proposal that mathematics represents absolute truth refers just to mathematics, exactly as I stated. 2+2=4 remains true even in an empty universe which contains nothing to count. Math does not depend upon relevance. It is true irrespective of God’s or man’s ability to discover it.

Mathematical principles and theorems cannot be created by man or God— they can only be discovered.

---

P.S. Do you really do roofing in Texas? That’s honest work. And falling off roofs is an ugly experience, so do be careful.

 

[greylorn]

Assuming 2 is 2, and you didn’t just round 1.8764928724 and 1.92472624672187 both into 2s.

I would not do that. Were I approximating in my head, I’d go with 3.8. But if the numbers you offered represented extraordinarily precise measurements of something, I would haul out my calculator and produce a legitimate sum of the numbers, rounding after ten decimal digits.

A previous post may help with your understanding of this.