Can we KNOW?

[Serafina17]

I’ve been having a little bit of a ‘debate’ with a ‘friend’ , originally on the issue of abortion.
She’d hit with arguments like ‘you can’t force your beliefs on women’ , or ‘just because YOU believe it’s wrong doesn’t mean you can force your beliefs on women…’ and now it’s got to 'just because YOU believe something is right/wrong (in context of abortion, religion, Bible, maybe even God…) doesn’t make it so.

I’m nonplussed. I know something’s wrong with that statement, but I just can’t put my finger on it. I’ve gone a little bit into relativist/absolutes, but I don’t think that really answers the question.

Help?

 

[Redratfish]

I’ve been having a little bit of a ‘debate’ with a ‘friend’ , originally on the issue of abortion.
She’d hit with arguments like ‘you can’t force your beliefs on women’ , or ‘just because YOU believe it’s wrong doesn’t mean you can force your beliefs on women…’ and now it’s got to 'just because YOU believe something is right/wrong (in context of abortion, religion, Bible, maybe even God…) doesn’t make it so.

I’m nonplussed. I know something’s wrong with that statement, but I just can’t put my finger on it. I’ve gone a little bit into relativist/absolutes, but I don’t think that really answers the question.

Help?

Are you arguing from a murder standpoint? As in the only difference between a fetus and a old man is years and age? If not, I suggest you try that, its been very effective in the past.
Tries to argue that they can kill a fetus because it cannot support itself without its mom, tell them neither can a 2 year old. Can we kill them too?

The easiest argument to contradict is the “abortion is going to happen anyway. We need to keep it legal because women would do self abortions, which are much less safe than regular medical abortions.” Ask them if rape should be legal. After all, its illegal, people still do it. Should we provide a clean room for the rapist, so that the women would be less likely to contract diseases than in an alley way?

Never give up this argument, even if it seems like you are losing, there is always a way to argue against murder.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve been having a little bit of a ‘debate’ with a ‘friend’ , originally on the issue of abortion.
She’d hit with arguments like ‘you can’t force your beliefs on women’ , or ‘just because YOU believe it’s wrong doesn’t mean you can force your beliefs on women…’ and now it’s got to 'just because YOU believe something is right/wrong (in context of abortion, religion, Bible, maybe even God…) doesn’t make it so.

I’m nonplussed. I know something’s wrong with that statement, but I just can’t put my finger on it. I’ve gone a little bit into relativist/absolutes, but I don’t think that really answers the question.

Help?

The sad fact is that it is difficult to ovecome such arguments for the simple reason that such a “relativistic” view provides them with an “out” to anything.

First of all I would agree with her that there are many cases in which the beliefs and opinions of the individual should not be imposed on others. We don’t want laws saying what churh you can and cannot belong to. However, there are other areas where Laws are required for the good of society. In these cases the views of some must be imposed on everyone.

Every Law is an imposition of one view over another view. Killing, theft, even Zoning Laws, restrict and impose one person’s view onto others. (in fact Zoning laws are a good example of the society imposing their view on to the individual and restricting the individuals use of space that they “own”) Some Laws even exist inspite of what the majority would like. (Tax Laws or instance). So neither individual freedom ore even majority rule removes the need for certain laws.

In the case of Abortion, it is not a matter of imposing one’s “faith based belief” onto others but rather trying to educate others to the scientific facts of the matter. For instance, there is the scientific fact that the one thing that distingiushes humans from other creatures is their Chromosones. A child, by this scientific definition, is human from the point of conception - and since it is a child, it deserves protection under the law, just as a 2 day old infant does.
It is a sad fact that, just to pick a date, on June 1st, a person can and would be arrested for killing a baby, but on May 31st, the killing of that same Child is perfectly legal. What difference is there in the Child other than location? None. This is not a position that has it’s basis in science, or morality, but in simple legalize.

Relativism in general breeds, not law and order, but anarchy. The greater the acceptance of relativism the more blurred is the line between right and wrong - and the more quickly society becomes numbed to evils.
We see it every day - Promiscuity, Abortion, Embezzlement, Lying Cheating, and a whole host of other evils.

I apologize that this is not a well thought out argument for you, but perhaps some of this might be of help to you.

Peace
James

 

[OchsFam]

I’ve been having a little bit of a ‘debate’ with a ‘friend’ , originally on the issue of abortion.
She’d hit with arguments like ‘you can’t force your beliefs on women’ , or ‘just because YOU believe it’s wrong doesn’t mean you can force your beliefs on women…’ and now it’s got to 'just because YOU believe something is right/wrong (in context of abortion, religion, Bible, maybe even God…) doesn’t make it so.

I’m nonplussed. I know something’s wrong with that statement, but I just can’t put my finger on it. I’ve gone a little bit into relativist/absolutes, but I don’t think that really answers the question.

Help?

I think another important aspect is that if we can’t force our opinions on her, why then can she force her opinion on the child? The scientific fact is that the child is a human life from the moment of conception and that she is stating that her opinion is that she can kill the child prior to the birth. An infant in the womb is no more dependent on the mother than a 3 month old, but I will bet she would not be okay with killing a 3 month old. I am sure the child would disagree with her opinion.

The problem with the argument is that you are in a discussion with a selfish person who is more interested in her well being than the life of her choice. Her choice was prior to the conception of that child and she chose to have sex and chose to conceive a life. After all, the natural result of sex is pregnancy. It is not a disease or some unusual circumstance. Contraception is guaranteed to fail, not guaranteed to prevent pregnancy. Now that she has made her choice, there is a third life involved and it is no longer her choice as to if the child lives or dies since every human has the right to life. If she did not want a child, she should not have had sex.

God Bless.

 

[SavedbyHisBlood]

Is it wrong for us who beleive that murder and/or theft is wrong to impose our belief into a murderer or a thief? Abortion should be no different.

 

[SavedbyHisBlood]

The problem with the argument is that you are in a discussion with a selfish person who is more interested in her well being than the life of her choice. Her choice was prior to the conception of that child and she chose to have sex and chose to conceive a life. After all, the natural result of sex is pregnancy. It is not a disease or some unusual circumstance. Contraception is guaranteed to fail, not guaranteed to prevent pregnancy. Now that she has made her choice, there is a third life involved and it is no longer her choice as to if the child lives or dies since every human has the right to life. If she did not want a child, she should not have had sex.
God Bless.

Exactly!!

 

[Serafina17]

Thank you all for your responses!
I’ve used the argument that there are laws prohibiting such things as murder, rape, theft etc, and should they not be, since that is forcing beliefs on people. She replied that those things are universal wrongs, and ‘everyone’ believes they are wrong, unlike abortion.

Her point had been that the unborn baby is completely dependant on the mother… iow, is a parasite living off her body. (She does believe, though, that the unborn is actually human.)
I asked her if the ‘place of residence’ and ‘level of dependancy’ should decide someone’s value. I also asked her if the abolitionists should not have tried to ‘force their beliefs on others’…
She never responded…

I’m not ready to give up at all… but she is. She announced to me that because I am a conservative Christian who always thinks I’m right, she has nothing more to say to me. She’s someone who has vigorously told others to ‘open their eyes’ and think for themselves… Instead of replying to what I actually was arguing (which wasn’t *at all *from a religious standpoint…I didn’t even mention God), she attacks me… Who’se being illogical and closed-minded here, I’d like to know.

The only accusation from her that I didn’t really have an answer to was the question I asked on here. I know she wouldn’t stoop so low as to actually respond to me, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your responses!
I’ve used the argument that there are laws prohibiting such things as murder, rape, theft etc, and should they not be, since that is forcing beliefs on people. She replied that those things are universal wrongs, and ‘everyone’ believes they are wrong, unlike abortion.

Her point had been that the unborn baby is completely dependant on the mother… iow, is a parasite living off her body. (She does believe, though, that the unborn is actually human.)
I asked her if the ‘place of residence’ and ‘level of dependancy’ should decide someone’s value. I also asked her if the abolitionists should not have tried to ‘force their beliefs on others’…
She never responded…

I’m not ready to give up at all… but she is. She announced to me that because I am a conservative Christian who always thinks I’m right, she has nothing more to say to me. She’s someone who has vigorously told others to ‘open their eyes’ and think for themselves… Instead of replying to what I actually was arguing (which wasn’t *at all *from a religious standpoint…I didn’t even mention God), she attacks me… Who’se being illogical and closed-minded here, I’d like to know.

The only accusation from her that I didn’t really have an answer to was the question I asked on here. I know she wouldn’t stoop so low as to actually respond to me, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

Are you refering to this one:
*and now it’s got to 'just because YOU believe something is right/wrong (in context of abortion, religion, Bible, maybe even God…) doesn’t make it so. *

This is a two edged sword. She intends it to undercut you rpostion but it also undercuts hers. If your belief “Doesn’t make it so” and thus supports her, then her belief doesn’t make it so either and thus supports your position.

As to the “Parasite” issue, this fails on at least two points. First a parasite is never the same species as teh host. Therefore a baby cannot be a parasite living off teh mother. Secondly a parasite will stay in the host (not in it’s mother), growing and developing until it kills the host. Babies do not. They remain in the womb for the designed length of time and then exit, generally in a normal and prescribed manner that the mother is designed for. AND in most cases without causing any permanant physical harm to the mother.

It sounds as though you have pretty well demolished her arguments and therefore she is ready to withdraw from the field of debate. When this happens, just say a prayer that the seeds you planted will grow to bear fruit in God’s good time.

Peace
James

 

[SavedbyHisBlood]

Thank you all for your responses!
I’ve used the argument that there are laws prohibiting such things as murder, rape, theft etc, and should they not be, since that is forcing beliefs on people. She replied that those things are universal wrongs, and ‘everyone’ believes they are wrong, unlike abortion.

If you asked a murderer, a rapist, or a theif if their crimes were wrong they may not say yes. If you find someone that disagrees then does ‘everyone’ really believe they are wrong? or just the vast majority? So are the above crimes really different from abortion?

 

[vz71]

She replied that those things are universal wrongs, and ‘everyone’ believes they are wrong, unlike abortion.

But that is not true.
One need only look as far as the radical Muslim terrorists to see ‘universal’ in these supposed universal wrong is questionable.

Her point had been that the unborn baby is completely dependant on the mother… iow, is a parasite living off her body. (She does believe, though, that the unborn is actually human.)
I asked her if the ‘place of residence’ and ‘level of dependancy’ should decide someone’s value. I also asked her if the abolitionists should not have tried to ‘force their beliefs on others’…
She never responded…

You have the argument. She needs to respond to these arguments.
Your point is made well, her silence is deafening.

I’m not ready to give up at all… but she is.

Seems like someone here is not as dedicated to the argument at hand as their opponent. That speaks volumes.

She announced to me that because I am a conservative Christian who always thinks I’m right, she has nothing more to say to me.

“I can’t win, so it is your stubborness that is the problem…”

She’s someone who has vigorously told others to ‘open their eyes’ and think for themselves… Instead of replying to what I actually was arguing (which wasn’t *at all *from a religious standpoint…I didn’t even mention God), she attacks me… Who’se being illogical and closed-minded here, I’d like to know.

You should call her on ad hominem arguments.

The only accusation from her that I didn’t really have an answer to was the question I asked on here. I know she wouldn’t stoop so low as to actually respond to me, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

Seems like you have the argument won.
Is there an audience to this? If so, you should push the points that she cannot answer…hard.
If not, leave it. Just make sure she realizes that these same questions will keep coming up and it would be best if she finds an answer to it.
It will be much more effective to leave your questions unanswered and in her hands.