Can we lie for save our life?

[javid]

Can we lie for save our life? for example if some one would kill us because of our face, can we say “I’m not christian”?

 

[Bookcat]

Can we lie for save our life? for example if some one would kill us because of our face, can we say “I’m not christian”?

The example given would be for certain not something one could do.

Rather: earlychristians.org/testimonies_martyrs/scillitan_saints.html

(and we also should not try to imagine such – for we are not there and do not have the grace of the moment to deal with such --in the here and now. Rather trust in God for the grace not to do so then).

As to lying per se – no we are not to lie.

“let your yes be yes and your no no…” as Jesus taught us.

Catechism:

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

What can one do?

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283

Now – when the killer is at the door looking for a certain person …it may happen that via weakness one might fall into a venial sin of lying as we fall into other venial sins in life via weakness. And it can be rather difficult to be in such a situation… which may have the culpability be greatly lessened to be a slight slight sin due to the stress etc. Not that sin is “ok” (it is not) but God knows our weakness and can quickly forgive …

 

[catholictiger]

Can we lie for save our life? for example if some one would kill us because of our face, can we say “I’m not christian”?

it depends on the situation, if they would kill you in the name of Christ you must stand in the face of that and say I am christian, but other situations may warrant laying. Lets say your friend comes by and says I’m running by a mad man who is trying to kill me, than he runs off. The mad man comes and says you know (friends name) have you seen him recently. You say no to save his life or send him in the wrong direction. Lying in this case was ok, lying in the other case isn’t.

 

[meltzerboy]

it depends on the situation, if they would kill you in the name of Christ you must stand in the face of that and say I am christian, but other situations may warrant laying. Lets say your friend comes by and says I’m running by a mad man who is trying to kill me, than he runs off. The mad man comes and says you know (friends name) have you seen him recently. You say no to save his life or send him in the wrong direction. Lying in this case was ok, lying in the other case isn’t.

I’m not sure lying in the latter situation is acceptable according to Catholic teaching. (I believe it is according to Jewish teaching since saving a life trumps the act of lying, except if it involves idolatry or rejecting G-d.) I think a Catholic would be required to evade the question by somehow not answering it directly or fully, rather than lying.

 

[SonCatcher]

it depends on the situation, if they would kill you in the name of Christ you must stand in the face of that and say I am christian, but other situations may warrant laying. Lets say your friend comes by and says I’m running by a mad man who is trying to kill me, than he runs off. The mad man comes and says you know (friends name) have you seen him recently. You say no to save his life or send him in the wrong direction. Lying in this case was ok, lying in the other case isn’t.

Even in that scenario, there is the truthful response, “Sorry, I couldn’t tell you where he is.” While he may assume that means you didn’t know (even though you did), you didn’t actually say so. It is true, however, that you could not tell him because of his intent to kill your friend.

 

[SonCatcher]

I’m not sure lying in the latter situation is acceptable according to Catholic teaching. (I believe it is according to Jewish teaching since saving a life trumps the act of lying, except if it involves idolatry or rejecting G-d.) I think a Catholic would be required to evade the question by somehow not answering it directly or fully, rather than lying.

Even if lying is resorted to, since it is under duress, the severity of the sin is lessened or even completely mitigated.

So if you’ve lost your wits and can’t come up with a truthful (if misleading) response as suggested in my previous response, you have nothing to worry about. Just mention it in your next Confession (I know not applicable to you, Meltzerboy - I write this for most other participants).

 

[runningdude]

Even if lying is resorted to, since it is under duress, the severity of the sin is lessened or even completely mitigated.

So if you’ve lost your wits and can’t come up with a truthful (if misleading) response as suggested in my previous response, you have nothing to worry about. Just mention it in your next Confession (I know not applicable to you, Meltzerboy - I write this for most other participants).

“So yeah, I kind of denied the divinity of my Lord and Savior… my bad”

 

[shadowlily]

it depends on the situation, if they would kill you in the name of Christ you must stand in the face of that and say I am christian,

Sorry to add a question that wasn’t in the original post , but if anyone here can answer, this is something I’ve been wondering… if you did sin by lying in that situation, and the person would’ve killed you if you had told the truth, then would you not be able to further do what God intended later, because that was when God meant for you to die? Or at least, you would never be able to do as much good in the world as you would have done by dying at that point?

Or does that confusing thing about God not letting an evil thing happen unless He can make a greater good come out of it (which sounds to me like that also means the more evil someone does, and the more they deviate from God’s plan/ideal, then the more good they will cause) apply here. >.<

 

[catholictiger]

I’m not sure lying in the latter situation is acceptable according to Catholic teaching. (I believe it is according to Jewish teaching since saving a life trumps the act of lying, except if it involves idolatry or rejecting G-d.) I think a Catholic would be required to evade the question by somehow not answering it directly or fully, rather than lying.

avoiding the question would kinda be indirect lying

 

[catholictiger]

Sorry to add a question that wasn’t in the original post , but if anyone here can answer, this is something I’ve been wondering… if you did sin by lying in that situation, and the person would’ve killed you if you had told the truth, then would you not be able to further do what God intended later, because that was when God meant for you to die? Or at least, you would never be able to do as much good in the world as you would have done by dying at that point?

Or does that confusing thing about God not letting an evil thing happen unless He can make a greater good come out of it (which sounds to me like that also means the more evil someone does, and the more they deviate from God’s plan/ideal, then the more good they will cause) apply here. >.<

we shouldn’t guess what God has in store for us, and we should never deny christ, even if we think a greater good may come out of it later.

look at the countless martyrs in the church who in the face of certain death, refused to deny Christ to save their lives. While I may not have the courage to stand up in the face of death for christ and no run away from death when I should turn the other cheek. I see what your getting at but God would never will for you to deny his only son to save your life.

 

[catholictiger]

Even in that scenario, there is the truthful response, “Sorry, I couldn’t tell you where he is.” While he may assume that means you didn’t know (even though you did), you didn’t actually say so. It is true, however, that you could not tell him because of his intent to kill your friend.

good point and I failed to realize this

 

[shadowlily]

we shouldn’t guess what God has in store for us, and we should never deny christ, even if we think a greater good may come out of it later.

look at the countless martyrs in the church who in the face of certain death, refused to deny Christ to save their lives. While I may not have the courage to stand up in the face of death for christ and no run away from death when I should turn the other cheek. I see what your getting at but God would never will for you to deny his only son to save your life.

I know. That’s not what I was asking. The second half of my post pretty much had little to do with the question. Sorry for being unclear.

What I mean is… if you lied and denied Christ, yes, that would be a sin, and so since God meant for you to die then, and God only means for the best outcome, would that mean that you could never do as much good in your life afterwards as you would have done by telling the truth and dying then?

 

[catholictiger]

I know. That’s not what I was asking. The second half of my post pretty much had little to do with the question. Sorry for being unclear.

What I mean is… if you lied and denied Christ, yes, that would be a sin, and so since God meant for you to die then, and God only means for the best outcome, would that mean that you could never do as much good in your life afterwards as you would have done by telling the truth and dying then?

If God were calling you to martyr yourself then yes you couldn’t. God may put you in that situation as a point of great conversion he may know you don’t have the courage to stand up for Christ, that moment could convert your heart and you become a great man/women, who converts thousands. But still it was wrong for you to deny Christ and lie, but God may take that persons hardness of heart and soften it by that moment and bring about great fruit. But again if someone threatens your life if you believe in Christ you must stand up for him, but God can turn mess into beauty.

 

[St_Francis]

I know. That’s not what I was asking. The second half of my post pretty much had little to do with the question. Sorry for being unclear.

What I mean is… if you lied and denied Christ, yes, that would be a sin, and so since God meant for you to die then, and God only means for the best outcome, would that mean that you could never do as much good in your life afterwards as you would have done by telling the truth and dying then?

There is a tremendous amount of grace generated by martyrdom, but the person who lied and survived would still be able to return to God and do as much as he possibly as penance. We can’t really look at a situation and say, Um, I messed up, now I’ll never do as much good as I could have done then… Maybe not, or maybe by persevering in the spiritual life one will have another opportunity for martyrdom, or maybe one will raise Godly children, etc.

we just can’t really think that way, that we missed our chance. God gives us more chances.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Even if lying is resorted to, since it is under duress, the severity of the sin is lessened or even completely mitigated.

So if you’ve lost your wits and can’t come up with a truthful (if misleading) response as suggested in my previous response, you have nothing to worry about. Just mention it in your next Confession (I know not applicable to you, Meltzerboy - I write this for most other participants).

But one should not commit the sin and presume he can just go and confess it. To do so would be the sin of presumption.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Actually, this question is more complicated than it sounds. There are two positions on this.

The first is that if somebody has no right to the truth then lying to them is not a sin-an example being a murderer coming to the door and saying, “Where is the Pope? I’m going to kill him!” (naturally you, being a good Catholic, have offered to hide the Holy Father in your home to keep him safe from the evil marauding band of Christian-killers )

Since the person asking you has forfeited his right to the truth by coercing you (namely, forcing you to let the Holy Father get killed if you tell the truth) then it is okay to say no-according to the first position.

The second position is that there is no lying whatsoever. This is the position held by Thomists (people who agree with the philosophy of Saint Thomas Aquinas). Lying is against the natural law and is thus always wrong. So in the “murderer of the Pope” scenario above you’d say “I won’t tell you.” Or you keep silent. Then accept the consequences.

I am a Thomist. St. Thomas, for what it’s worth, thought that a “lie” like the one above, where you save somebody’s life, was so venial that although God dislikes your sin He actually praises you for your intention of saving the Pope.

Basically, you shouldn’t have sinned but if you were planning on it then this would be a good reason to do it. But preferably, don’t.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Even in that scenario, there is the truthful response, “Sorry, I couldn’t tell you where he is.” While he may assume that means you didn’t know (even though you did), you didn’t actually say so. It is true, however, that you could not tell him because of his intent to kill your friend.

 

[SonCatcher]

But one should not commit the sin and presume he can just go and confess it. To do so would be the sin of presumption.

If a person is capable of making a presumption, then he isn’t really under duress, is he?Therefore, either my first post applies or my second one does.

Then again, there is Marc Anthony’s post with its first theory. That is a person has no right to know then you are under no obligation to tell the truth. I, likewise, don’t subscribe to it but find some support in the text of the Commandment, itself.

Do not bear false witness against your neighbor

This is not a prohibition of lying per se. It is more a prohibition of perjury (a specific type of lying). The Church additionally teaches that this command is against slander, even when the slander is strictly truthful.

 

[javid]

Lord Jesus charged his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ(Matthew16:20)

So If some one ask one of them “Is Jesus the chirst?” On that time he must say “no” or “I don’t know” and both are lie, because he knew that Jesus is the christ.

Doesn’t it mean that some times saying a lie is not a sin?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Confrontations with hostile groups? Seems to me you wouldn’t be detained as a Christian unless you were already suspected to be a Christian. Denial, is denial of Christ. of course duress would be another situation. Even here this has been rare.